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  1. #1
    Nokia Developer Champion
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    Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    Ciao,

    just wanted to push more the idea of having the Nokia Flash Lite .nfl packaging extended to S60 too.
    Currently this format is available on S40 5th Edition FP1 and later versions.

    It's a perfect solution for Flash Lite developers to package Flash Lite content for distribution.

    The Nokia Flash Lite .nfl format is basically a zipped file. It's very easy to create and some developers in the Flash Lite community already create tools for packaging.

    So I am asking to the Flash Lite community to support this.

    Alessandro

  2. #2
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    Yes i support this too.

    Security and packaging are two major drawbacks when we have to discuss content distribution. Security can now be tackled with OMA DRM, and packaging will only get easier with the NFL format for S60.

    Not sure how aggregators/operators would welcome this format on S60, but it would definitely save us developers from creation, distribution and installation issues arising with other distribution formats.

    Mariam
    Mariam Dholkawala
    http://www.igamestudio.com

    Blog - http://www.mariamdholkawala.com/mobile
    MaD UG - http://www.indimadgroup.com

  3. #3
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    I fully support the nfl format for s60 platform, it will help to have a homogenous way to deploy content for Nokia devices.

    However, we have to take care about the carrier position who don't know/support this format. How long to adopt it? Is it possible in a near future?
    JAR, SIS, CAB formats are supported by all the major carrier delivery platforms.

    My 2 cents,

    Philippe
    Mobitween

  4. #4
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    I'd support anything that makes packaging and distributing a Flash application on mobile devices easier.
    If the *.NFL option (essentially a zip file) is significantly simpler than *.SIS for content producers then it can only be a good thing to enable them to ship more content.

    That said, if *.WGZ (WRT widgets - essentially a zip file) could be used to package and distribute Flash apps for S40 and S60 that would also be a welcome alternative - so long as the solution provides a consistent and reliable means of packaging and distributing an application to Nokia devices.

  5. #5
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    Another one that support this idea.

    I think NFL it's a really nice format to package and ditribute flash lite content. As Philippe says, to have the same process for deploying content on S40 and S60 could help very much.

    Marcos

  6. #6
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    Caio,

    Philippe, I understand the Operator/Carrier issue. They CMS will need to be provisioned.
    But it's the usual deal of education. If the story is: all future Nokia devices support one install pacaging format for all FL content (wallpapers/screensaver,games,application) they may listen!!

    .jar, .sis, .wgz, .cab are "hack" packaging format for FL content.

    The .nfl gives one "story", includes the .swf, the icon and anything the content needs including DRM support.
    I know Nokia is looking at a it, but they need a case to support the effort.

    Alessandro

  7. #7
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    I don't know the .nfl format, because i work only with S60. But i fully support it, of course. The idea of packing FL content is great! Today i have to use the Kunneri lite and generate a .sis file .

    I support nfl format.

  8. #8
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    Nice idea!

    Of course I support the petition too, we need to keep it simple in order to have a standard packaging system for S40 and S60.

    Cheers,

    Raul.

  9. #9
    Product Specialist
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    Ciao Alessandro,

    This is an interesting discussion, and you won't be surprised to know that we have discussed this option.

    With the Flash Lite Distributable Player we recognise that the OTA upgrade piece is a key driver to consistent runtimes. To ensure an upgrade path and a typical install experience it's necessary to use binary EXE files. Currently we use these to verify the device, its players and carry out the OTA update as necessary. To add NFL support we'd need to seed the device base with SIS files to add app-recognizers, get security approval etc. It would take months to add and to get approval from the operators/aggregators, it would probably cause AIR to slip.

    My opinion is that ultimately it is simpler to stick with one package format per platform until .air is supported across device platforms. We made that decision after months of discussions, we even tried to align around JAR in the interim, but it was technically impossible.

    So at the end of the day I believe that our current use of SIS packages is a stable position for the community. Saying that, it's something that I'm working to improve for the community, particularly the signing process. I'm also sure that in 2009 we'll find a way to remove the S60 SDK dependency on the Adobe Mobile Packager, greatly reducing the hassle of creating SIS files.

    Let's keep the discussion rolling though... but can you give me a sense of what's so wrong with SIS too?

    thanks,

    Mark Doherty
    Adobe - Platform Evangelist
    Last edited by markadoherty; 2009-01-23 at 17:02.
    Mark Doherty
    Developer Evangelist
    Adobe Systems, Mobile and Devices EMEA

  10. #10
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    Ciao Mark,

    I understand your position but that's Adobe story. The OTA FL Deliverable Player is good for games and application but it does not upgrade the FL player that is pre-installed on the phone and I understand why. It lives in parallel with the existing FL player which is a different version.

    I was one of the first to create a SIS installer with Leonardo (more work on his part!), but everyone knows that is an "hack". SWF are not active content, the player is. We needed to solve a fundamental issue that was not addressed, the icon on the menu!!! When I say the icon means, a packaged content that can run by a user from an icon!
    Also SIS does not work on S40 which is the bulk of the 1 billion handsets sold by Nokia every year.

    Signing is separate issue and content protection is another issue.

    Nokia has created the Nokia Flash Lite packaging format and to me that's the perfect solution for FL content on Nokia handsets. The S40 5ht Ed FP1 phones are already on the market and they are selling!!
    So my opinion is that Nokia should provide the same solution for S60 via firmware upgrades and by default on future phones.

    Alessandro

  11. #11
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    Alessandro,

    Yes, the differenciation between passive/active content is true but I should follow Mark when he ask you "what's the issue with SIS?".

    Open Operating System like Symbian and Windows Mobile have a strong archive building system (intra and inter dependencies, module inclusion, version update management ...) which is quite well adapted to the power of the platforms and all of the active content we can deploy on them.

    JAR, SIS and CAB are de facto standards in the industry, I follow you when you say that NFL is nice but it's a Nokia only technology.

    If you see SIS SWF packaging as a "hack", I see NFL packaging just as a "trick"

    Why Nokia did not use a similar swf2jar to package SWF? ... Sony Ericsson did it! Definitely a better approach to me.

    Philippe
    Mobitween

  12. #12
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    Ciao Philippe,

    first, I wanted this thread to be a push for Nokia to extend the NFL packaging to S60, but now is getting into a discussion !

    Anyway, "what's the issue with SIS?" !
    Nothing, but SIS format is for Symbian Applications not for passive content.
    That you add other binaries to the SIS installer of a FL content like the OTA FL DP, or for example Kuneri, there is nothing wrong.

    "NFL packaging just as a "trick", is a trick that works/will work on the highest volume handsets by sales.

    When you say "JAR, SIS and CAB are de facto standards in the industry", I agree but most of the content is downloaded off-deck and for FL there is no "de facto" standard. That's my point!

    Also since you can apply DRM to NFL the final install is a DRM protected file which is already supported by Operators/Carriers CMS.

    "Why Nokia did not use a similar swf2jar to package SWF?"
    Don't know but maybe because they are the market leader.
    We were looking at Jar packaging for FL content with Jarpa but again it's an "hack".


    Alessandro

  13. #13
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    Since this has turned into a discussion, I thought this new article regarding Nokia's future investment in S60 versus S40 might add something.

    http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/...usage_new_.php

    Cheers.

    Dale.
    Dale Rankine, Founder & CEO Moket
    Website: www.moket.com
    Email: dale@moket.com
    Blog: www.dalerankine.com

  14. #14
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    I clicked in hoping to simply add my name to the petition to add .nfl to S60, but now all this discussion has triggered more thoughts

    I love simplicity (some would say I'm simple-minded, starting with my wife) and from that point of view I agree with Mark D's opinion that "that ultimately it is simpler to stick with one package format per platform". Problem is we already have a bunch of formats, esp, on the Nokia side (.wgz, sis, nfl) so adding .nfl to S60 wouldn't really be adding more confusion to the picture than there already is. And I'm a little wary of the last bit of Mark's comment, "until we get AIR", which sounds to me like one more format coming to add to the list. Hopefully not, I'd rather see that list of formats shrink, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.

    I understand why in part there's so many formats, each has various "features" that give them special advantages for their functionality and/or distribution that others do not. But in the long run, in my opinion, to really compete successfully in the marketplace the one-format-per-platform has to happen. Maybe it's sis, or nfl, or a new "AIR-friendly" format yet to come...

    Um, I may be getting off thread by now...so what I meant to say was, yes Alessandro, please add my name to this "petition" to add .nfl support to S60!

    Max

  15. #15
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    Re: Petition: Nokia Flash Lite packaging on all future Nokia

    I'm a developer, I like flash, it's the perfect environment for multimedia applications... it's perfect for phones... and phones producers seems to not see that...

    why develop webOS (like palm), why s60, windowsMobile, and other OSs...

    well just consider a phone that can run a adobe flash CS4 (flash v.10). I guess it can be done if the OS is flashBased... and the applications will be so powerful.

    anyway this is my concept phone: http://concepts.shpe.ro/

    and bravo nokia for the flash extensions in my nokia 5800. hope to resolve the problems that I've mentioned in the forum...

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