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  1. #31
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    Re: Opinions and Questions on Costs

    I would gladly pay up immediately for a Mac if it frees me of the signage hassles.

    Jokes aside: if anyone wants to gang in, we can launch a press release. Merging the thread has reduced the visibilty of this of course...
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  2. #32
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    Re: Opinions or Questions on Costs

    Hi Ron,

    There's a previous post in this thread by a poster purporting to be "Head of Ovi Publish", essentially saying that testing (Symbian or JV) is not a requirement. It would be really useful if you could confirm this, or change that user's name if they're not able to speak on Nokia's behalf.

    Cheers,
    Graham.

  3. #33
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    Re: Opinions or Questions on Costs

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamhughes View Post
    Hi Ron,

    There's a previous post in this thread by a poster purporting to be "Head of Ovi Publish", essentially saying that testing (Symbian or JV) is not a requirement. It would be really useful if you could confirm this, or change that user's name if they're not able to speak on Nokia's behalf.

    Cheers,
    Graham.
    The Head of Ovi Publishing is in fact Head of Ovi Publishing and he said...
    In this post

    For Applications, the following presents our policy:

    • Symbian submissions should be pre-tested and fulfill Symbian Signed Certification requirements
    • Java application submissions should be pre-tested and fulfill Java Verified requirements - title, application
    • Java and Symbian applications must be signed appropriately, no signing related warning messages are allowed at any circumstances


    Express signing of Symbian applications does meet this criteria.

    Which message were you referring too?

    Ron
    Last edited by Nokia Ron; 2009-04-16 at 22:49.

  4. #34
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    Re: Opinions or Questions on Costs

    That was the message.

    So... a Symbian application does not have to be independently tested. Does that also mean that a Java application does not require testing, and signing with a UTI certificate? I can self-certify that it meets the JV requirements?

    Cheers,
    Graham.

  5. #35
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    Re: Opinions and Questions on Costs

    To be fair, Nokia seems to be very hard at work playing catch up with other phone manufacturers, not just Apple. It's funny that a computer company like Apple could have created such a popular phone. The Symbian platform is a huge market and there are thousands of application out there already. The problem is that they are scattered everywhere. OVI will help gather them all in one convenient market place for consumer. OVI should also be a central place where developers, big and small, to publish their content.

    You know creative software is what will drive most consumer to a handset. Cellphones are no longer just a phone. People wants contents and LOTS of it!

    Why make publishing to OVI such a confusing and costly effort? Other similar services already laid the ground work follow it and better it.

    What is your goal Nokia? Your profit is down, your market share is being eaten up.

  6. #36
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    Re: Opinions and Questions on Costs

    Link to another thread on Costs to read
    http://discussion.forum.nokia.com/fo...d.php?t=165108

  7. #37
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    Re: Opinions and Questions on Costs

    Perhaps to be more effective at getting Nokia attention can someone make a sticky thread with subject line: "Suggestions to OVI team?"


    So far I have read issues regarding Cost, DRM, and Application Signing. We should gather them in one place.

  8. #38
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    Re: Express Signed

    Quote Originally Posted by CHAPLIN View Post
    I totally agree with you, I had a lot of themes and screensavers to upload on publish to ovi but I have given up, it's ridiculous the ammount we have to pay for this.
    I'm out.
    Well I think that Nokia wants some commitment to development from developers who publish on Ovi Store. If you would allow every sunday coder to publish his school work on store then soon there would be big amount of apps which are not really maintained or developed further anymore, bugs are not fixed etc. Sure eg. Apple AppStore has lots of stuff, but I have seriouos doubts about application quality and usefulness. I'm sure that big % of those apps are awful, buggy and useless.

  9. #39
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    Thumbs down Re: Express Signed

    Quote Originally Posted by miksuh View Post
    Well I think that Nokia wants some commitment to development from developers who publish on Ovi Store. If you would allow every sunday coder to publish his school work on store then soon there would be big amount of apps which are not really maintained or developed further anymore, bugs are not fixed etc. Sure eg. Apple AppStore has lots of stuff, but I have seriouos doubts about application quality and usefulness. I'm sure that big % of those apps are awful, buggy and useless.
    Miksuh, but that's not even the main problem (at least for me), all the burocracy it includes is awful, that's my first concern.
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  10. #40
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    Re: Express Signed

    Quote Originally Posted by miksuh View Post
    Well I think that Nokia wants some commitment to development from developers who publish on Ovi Store. If you would allow every sunday coder to publish his school work on store then soon there would be big amount of apps which are not really maintained or developed further anymore, bugs are not fixed etc. Sure eg. Apple AppStore has lots of stuff, but I have seriouos doubts about application quality and usefulness. I'm sure that big % of those apps are awful, buggy and useless.
    I agree entirely, and I had big hopes that requiring publishers to be incorporated, and to require submissions to go through a proper certification process, would ensure that Ovi does not become a dumping ground for every computer science student's final-year project.

    However, it seems that Nokia are backing away from these requirements, apparently to make Ovi more "Apple-ish".

    Unfortunately, Ovi does not exist in the Apple world. The Apple store has an absolute monopoly. Ovi (prospective) customers have a lot of choices. If Ovi fills with junk, customers will just go back to downloading from operator channels instead (or wherever).

    I don't think many developers are making money from the Apple store. I don't think many will from Ovi either.

    For me, as a professional developer looking for a distribution channel, Ovi looks like a massive disappointment.

    I'm sure the hobbyists will love Ovi...

  11. #41
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    Re: Express Signed

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamhughes View Post
    I agree entirely, and I had big hopes that requiring publishers to be incorporated, and to require submissions to go through a proper certification process, would ensure that Ovi does not become a dumping ground for every computer science student's final-year project.
    For me, as a professional developer looking for a distribution channel, Ovi looks like a massive disappointment.
    I'm sure the hobbyists will love Ovi...
    You're basically implying that independent or open-source developed software are crap and equivalent to a student project. This is an unfair and blatantly false characterization. Look at Mobbler. One of the most fantastic Symbian applications ever created. It's free and open source? Would you call Mobbler a student project?

    There are many independent developers who care about quality or useful software. Being an incorporated company or having sufficient funds for an otherwise prohibitively expensive certification process are NOT the indicators of quality software.

    Also - if I'm not mistaken, WRT widgets can be submitted to the Ovi Store and these don't have signing requirements/costs associated with them.

  12. #42
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    Re: Express Signed

    Quote Originally Posted by joeattardi View Post
    You're basically implying that independent or open-source developed software are crap and equivalent to a student project.
    I am in no way implying that.

    What I am stating is: Nokia devices support a very, very large developer community. Much larger than the iphone community. JavaME is an extremely easy platform to develop with, the tools are free, and they run on pretty much any desktop environment you like. (So, no need to go buy a Mac.) Ovi must have some way to avoid becoming hugely overloaded with content. In an ideal world, Nokia would vet each submission on it's own merit. However, I suspect they lack the resources to do this, and will need to select something easier and cheaper to implement. Which, unfortunately, is likely to be discriminatory.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeattardi View Post
    Look at Mobbler. One of the most fantastic Symbian applications ever created. It's free and open source? Would you call Mobbler a student project?
    I have no idea what "Mobbler" is.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeattardi View Post
    Being an incorporated company or having sufficient funds for an otherwise prohibitively expensive certification process are NOT the indicators of quality software.
    Define "prohibitively expensive"? The costs and commitments involved in setting up a company or achieving certification are trivial compared to the time and effort involved in developing an application.

    Read pjohnsen's first-time experiences with JV, an independent developer who appears to be having no serious problems getting his product certified.

    The point is not merely one of product quality, but also the seriousness of the developer to support and maintain their product.

    The iPhone App Store grew by some 250 new titles per day in March. Given the size of the Nokia developer community, Ovi could easily grow much faster than this. I am interested to hear your suggestions as to how Nokia should ensure quality. (Oh, and they'll need to ensure this quality without spending any money, as they don't make a penny from distributing freeware.)

    Quote Originally Posted by joeattardi View Post
    There are many independent developers who care about quality or useful software.
    I know. I am one.

    Graham.

  13. #43
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    Re: Express Signed

    I am in no way implying that.
    What I am stating is: Nokia devices support a very, very large developer community. Much larger than the iphone community. JavaME is an extremely easy platform to develop with, the tools are free, and they run on pretty much any desktop environment you like. (So, no need to go buy a Mac.) Ovi must have some way to avoid becoming hugely overloaded with content. In an ideal world, Nokia would vet each submission on it's own merit. However, I suspect they lack the resources to do this, and will need to select something easier and cheaper to implement. Which, unfortunately, is likely to be discriminatory.
    Unfortunately, there is no easy answer. And you're probably right. But the ratings system will help, at least. The really high quality applications will get three-star ratings and (hopefully) rise to the top. In reality, of course, I know that's not perfect. But there has to be some way for the little guy to get in, or else the Ovi Store will miss out on a lot of innovative apps.

    I have no idea what "Mobbler" is.
    If you ever listen to streaming music online, you should check Mobbler out. It's a Symbian client for the Last.fm music service. It's a GPL open source application and has a huge following: http://code.google.com/p/mobbler/ It's probably one of the best examples of a high quality Symbian app from one of the "little guys".

    Define "prohibitively expensive"? The costs and commitments involved in setting up a company or achieving certification are trivial compared to the time and effort involved in developing an application.
    Not always. From time to time I work on open-source projects in my spare time. When it's finished, it's finished. For the types of content I'd like to distribute in the Ovi Store, the certification costs are a showstopper, as is the requirement to set up a company. I'm not looking to make money, just to get my name (and hopefully a few nice applications) out there. I make plenty of money developing software at my day job.

    The point is not merely one of product quality, but also the seriousness of the developer to support and maintain their product.
    The iPhone App Store grew by some 250 new titles per day in March. Given the size of the Nokia developer community, Ovi could easily grow much faster than this. I am interested to hear your suggestions as to how Nokia should ensure quality. (Oh, and they'll need to ensure this quality without spending any money, as they don't make a penny from distributing freeware.)
    I can't disagree here. And it is a problem to ensure quality. Other than the ratings system, there isn't any real way to "crowdsource" the vetting of good vs crap applications. But Nokia is, and has always been, an innovative company. If they can make the commitment to it, I'm sure they can find a way to prevent a flood of iFarts while still having an avenue for independent or freeware/open source developers to distribute content in the Ovi Store.

  14. #44
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    Angry Re: Opinions and Questions on Costs

    I think we need to worry about a more basic problem about Nokia before OVI and it is the basic right of putting our applications on our own and customers' handsets it we (and customers) choose to do so in our free will. We paid for the damn phones, didn't we? It is not like Nokia gave them as presents and now can pick and choose what can or cannot run on them. I can see that Nokia's market share gives them confidence but that is only temporary. With Apple and Google in the market now, I am hoping this supremacy will be over soon and we'll have open platforms with market share to deploy our applications to without worrying about trustcenter.de and test houses and all that crap.

    Not all applications are built for the unknown masses to be distributed by application stores btw. It is not important what the application does but I would like to be able to distribute it to the people who know me and trust me enough to run my application on their phones. I could sell the application with its sources to a company and they still have to sign it to distribute it their own handsets that they give to their own employees. Open Signed Online is ok for testing purposes but does not make sense for this scenario. My solution to this scenario is to port the application to Blackberry and sign it for $20. It is a domain specific application that may influence companies' handset deployment and it will be working on Blackberry due to their $20 certification cost and already written Nokia version will be trashed. It is a shame really.

    Nokia seems like it thinks about developer community at first with forums, many tool options, IDEs and such but then you realize it is just a marketing gimmick by the marketing people with no coherent strategy, develop with Pys60 but try to SIS it with community plumbing and C documentation, and kills the enthusiam with stone age policies. And the tragic part is that it is a brand new initiative WITH stone age mentality. If I had known then what I know now, I would not have wasted an hour on Nokia development. I am sorry to say but Nokia sucks. I am also using my last Nokia handset, E60, and I swear I will not buy another Nokia handset unless they change their requirement for signing/certification.

  15. #45
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    Unhappy Re: Express Signed

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamhughes View Post
    Define "prohibitively expensive"? The costs and commitments involved in setting up a company or achieving certification are trivial compared to the time and effort involved in developing an application.
    The level at which they've set the bar not only kills free applications, but will raise the cost on all applications, and may drive the Ovi store to irrelevance. Here's why.

    Why does software development have to involve setting up a company? There are no costs, my spare time has no cost, my commitment has no cost. I do hardware design for a living, I have to relax and one way to do that is to code for fun. It's not billable time, my time is free, the tools are free. As such $240-$400 to put my first application on the Ovi store is very prohibitive. I have 15 years experience doing software design and engineering and a good bit of it with the open source community. I fondly remember the Qt 1.3.3, the first Apache release, I've been around.

    So, I have this trivial app I just wrote last week. I would like to publish it to the Ovi store and give it away. It's trivial, useful for a handful of people. Vehicles in the USA carrying dangerous goods must carry a placard with a 4 digit number on it specifying the type of contents being carried. When a tanker passes you on the highway and it has a placard with 3065 on it wouldn't it be cool to look it up?

    Now with my N85 I can, 3065 you can find out is Alchool, or 1203, is a tanker full of gasoline, 0106 is explosive fragmentary rocket powered grenades (never seen that one), etc. It's a simple URL query, anyone here can write the application, I even re-wrote it in 10 minutes as a WRT to learn WRTs. Should this be posted on the OVI store? I think so, it's useful to some people but not many especially not to those outside the USA. So you can argue this is part of the clutter you want to keep out of the store, and maybe Nokia should screen it from people to avoid to much clutter? The proper design of a store should allow people to navigate the store well to find what they want.

    Let's look at Amazon.com for a second. I don't know how many different products they tell, but it's a lot, and you can easily find what you are looking for, even if you're not sure exactly what it is. If you want to talk about clutter, they have it and you can normally find what you want. Lots of online web sites have dealt with this very well. Now you could argue, well a phone is different from a full website, but this is a false argument. Just because the screen is small doesn't mean a site can't be properly designed to categorize, highlight and bring relevant information to the user if it's well designed. Just look at the applications already installed on your phone, like Google Maps huge amount of data, yet anyone can use it.

    The current price structure of the Ovi store will guarantee this:

    1. High prices for applications, except perhaps the most popular
    2. Small catalog size
    3. No oddball or low demand applications
    4. Infrequently updated/old applications

    We've already had complaints about #1. These range from "what $10 for theme?!?!?" to example of people finding $20 or $30 applications and posting them online going "look at these crazy prices for this??" Sure a lot of work goes into apps, and then you add an entry fee of $240 to $400 on top of that? You have to make it up somehow since you have to sell $600 to break even.

    There are a lot of free applications out there that should be on the Ovi Store, where's PuTTY? where's y-browser? how about even Nokia Energy Profiler? Or let's see WirelessIRC. It's from the author of Gravity, but I guess it's not popular enough for him to put on the Ovi Store? It's the best irc client for s60 out there.

    The Nokia store could really be a great place for nokia to sell handsets. Instead they've set the bar to entry so high that when people look they'll see a bunch of terrible java games, a few java apps, some s60, and most WRTs that are portals to this or that.

    It's really disappointing.

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