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  1. #1
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    Opinions and Questions on Costs

    Will Express Signed application be approved? If not how about Certified Signed? As I remember in the current Nokia Download service you needed have Nokia Signed...

  2. #2
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    Re: Express Signed

    Quote Originally Posted by aol View Post
    Will Express Signed application be approved? If not how about Certified Signed? As I remember in the current Nokia Download service you needed have Nokia Signed...
    As OVI is a publishing platform, I think Express Signed applications will do.. but it would be good if a person from OVI team comment here!

  3. #3
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    Smile Re: Express Signed

    For Applications, the following presents our policy:

    • Symbian submissions should be pre-tested and fulfill Symbian Signed Certification requirements
    • Java application submissions should be pre-tested and fulfill Java Verified requirements - title, application
    • Java and Symbian applications must be signed appropriately, no signing related warning messages are allowed at any circumstances


    Express signing of Symbian applications does meet this criteria.

  4. #4
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    Smile Re: Express Signed

    Quote Originally Posted by pcstanton View Post
    For Applications, the following presents our policy:

    • Symbian submissions should be pre-tested and fulfill Symbian Signed Certification requirements
    • Java application submissions should be pre-tested and fulfill Java Verified requirements - title, application
    • Java and Symbian applications must be signed appropriately, no signing related warning messages are allowed at any circumstances


    Express signing of Symbian applications does meet this criteria.
    Thanks pcstanton, this solved our purpose.

  5. #5
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    Re: Express Signed

    Quote Originally Posted by Head of Ovi Publish View Post
    For Applications, the following presents our policy:

    • Symbian submissions should be pre-tested and fulfill Symbian Signed Certification requirements
    ...

    Express signing of Symbian applications does meet this criteria.
    Actually, sorry to say, there is no warranty that an Expressed Signed application fulfills the Symbian Signed testing criteria.
    -- Lucian

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  6. #6
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    Re: Express Signed

    Hello,

    I am looking into getting my freeware application Symbian-signed so that I can put it on the Ovi App Store and also add some nice features that require signing. After reading a few out of date documents about using a freeware publisher id and getting someone else to sign your app for you for free (what happened to this?), it seems that express signed is the only option for freeware applications to get Symbian-signed. It therefore looks to me like freeware applications are banned from the ovi app store. This seems to be a bit of an oversight and a big shame as there are a lot of innovative freeware apps out there.

    Please let me know if I have got this wrong, or if I just haven't found the correct link for freeware certified signing.

    Cheers!

    Michael

    EDIT: Just realised that you also have to pay $20 a go for express signed. Not really for freeware either then.
    Last edited by eartle; 2009-03-03 at 22:28.

  7. #7
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    Re: Express Signed

    Ok, let's clarify the things a bit: freeware means an application given away for free and not an application which was developed for free.

    To begin with you invest your time and knowledge in it and that "costs" money. Then, in order to certify your application you need a Published ID and that a) costs money and b) can only be obtained by companies.

    Now, assuming that you solve the Published ID problem (either get one or find a company to "sponsor" you and sign the app in its name) you have two certification paths: express signed and certified signed. Which one to chose it is a matter of a) cost, b) capabilities and c) time spent in testing stage.

    By no means the Express Signed is the freeware solution. It might be cheaper but is not free, it might be more flexible but breaking the rules when using it brings penalty.

    Furthermore, even if Express Signed is accepted by the Ovi Store you might not be able to use it (capabilities) or you might choose not to use it (i.e. the sponsor might not trust you enough and would prefer to spend the testing money to ensure that your app is of good quality).

    So, take the free out of the equation as it is irrelevant, the certification requirements and testing criteria are the same for all apps. The only way your app can be free is if you do not care about the costs or if your app is sponsored/ad-supported.

    An overview of signing options with costs and limitations can be found at http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/lu...symbian-signed
    Last edited by ltomuta; 2009-03-04 at 07:37. Reason: Typos
    -- Lucian

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  8. #8
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    Re: Express Signed

    Ciao

    is express sign allowed for Flash Lite content?
    Alessandro

  9. #9
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    Re: Express Signed

    Yes, Express Signed accepts Flash applications and passive content if packaged in a .sis file.
    -- Lucian

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  10. #10
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    Re: Express Signed

    Ah, the good old freeware Symbian Signing debate rears its head again. The fact that there has been no sensible solution to this for many, many months is truly shocking. The launch of the Ovi Store would make a nice deadline for having it sorted out!

    Lucian, your argument that people have spent their time and therefore shouldn't quibble about spending their money on getting the application certified is really weak. The point is that they don't have to on lots of other platforms, so why would they develop for Symbian/S60 (ever again in the case of those that thought there was free freeware signing when they started but now it has been withdrawn)? A lot of freeware and open source software is developed by students (although that isn't the case here) and they have plenty of time but very little money, so it makes a big difference!

    In this case, eartle's application is not only freeware but also open source:
    http://code.google.com/p/mobbler/

    It's also one of the best free applications available for S60 (indeed, some sites have said one of the best applications available for S60...).

    However, it could also be considered a commercial application, due to the possibility of purchasing tracks that you listen to via an Amazon affiliate store directly from the application (well, the app launches the browser actually).

    On balance though - Nokia (& the Symbian Foundation when it gets going) should be very actively encouraging this activity, particularly where the code is open source, thus providing a source of much needed examples for other developers. I'd say it is currently being almost actively discouraged.

    For distribution on the Ovi store, IMO, freeware needs to jump through whatever quality hoops that other applications are subjected to but they shouldn't have to pay for it.

    Sorry if that's off-topic for this board.

    Mark

    P.S. Just to clarify for those confused by the discussion above: Express Signed is fine for publishing on Ovi, although you really do have to follow the testing process before signing the application (otherwise you violate both the conditions for Express Signed and for the store - then you could be banned from the former and removed from the latter).

  11. #11
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    Re: Express Signed

    Thanks for your kind words, Sorcery!

    If express signed is going to be accepted on the ovi store then I think that will be the route we will take, but it would be nice to get a very official confiramtion of that before we start doing anything. We have a donations link on our homepage and, if I don't count the money spent on some web hosting we don't use, we have enough to get express signed three and a half times. That should do for now.

    Just so you know, the buy link is being removed in the next version as no one really uses it (we have made 15p from it so far) and there are better uses for that button.

    Michael

  12. #12
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    Re: Express Signed

    Hi Michael,

    Thanks for the info - I did wonder if last.fm users would be at all interested in buying individual music tracks...

    Note that you still need a publisher ID in order to use Express Signed, so assuming you can get one that may well eat up more than your donations budget before individual signing events.

    I am genuinely hoping for some positive change on the Symbian Signed front soon - David Wood has been making some good noises on the topic and I note that the Symbian Foundation is recruiting management for "Symbian Signed" and "Application Certification" as separate positions (and they always should have been separate functions as far as I'm concerned, although I might be letting myself get a little too hopeful here).

    I'm sure Express Signed will be allowed for publishing to Ovi, I'd argue that Lucian's comment:
    Actually, sorry to say, there is no warranty that an Expressed Signed application fulfills the Symbian Signed testing criteria.
    should either be regarded as incorrect or just incredibly pedantic. You have to declare that you've passed the testing criteria to use Express Signed, what's missing is independent testing and that wasn't listed as a requirement for Ovi. From what I've heard, many of the largest mobile software companies use in-house testing and Express Signed, not primarily because of cost but because of the time to market control and speed increase they get from not having to deal with incompetent or inflexible test houses. Of course you can lie and just sign your application anyway but test houses can also easily miss non-compliance, and I've installed a Nokia in-house signed publicly distributed application that blatantly didn't pass all of the criteria (an early version of the N-Gage client for anyone that cares).

    If you do have trouble with signing your application then I'd suggest you contact Antony Edwards before shelling out any cash, he's certainly been keen to get this problem solved in the past.

    Mark

  13. #13
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    Re: Express Signed

    Mark and all,

    I'm not saying that distributing freeware apps is a bad idea, nor am I saying that freeware applications are not good. What I am saying is that a freeware application is not at all free until the selling point and that neither Symbian Signed not Ovi Store are addressing a clear need, that of a safe reliable and cheap way for independent developers (no Publisher ID) or startups (finding the certification costs too high) to published their [free] applications.

    Take a piece of software from conception to release and certification, replace the soft- in software with free-. How does the process look different to you? There is no difference, both a) costs and b) restrictions are the same. Should there be a difference? Yes, there should ...

    The point of my post here was not against the freeware developers but for them, and for the Ovi team, so that everybody sees that there is still a problem here and think about ways to solve it. It would be hiding behind the finger to pretend that we have Express Signed as a freeware signing option for the store the way we full ourselves thinking that Open Signed Online is a freeware signing channel for independently distributed apps.

    I should stop trying to help though and let the system work as it is. If you are happy with the current situation then please do send me a private message and ask me to mind my own business …

    Best regards,
    -- Lucian

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  14. #14
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    Re: Express Signed

    Hello,

    For some reason I accidentally read

    Express signing of Symbian applications does meet this criteria.

    as

    Express signing of Symbian applications does NOT meet this criteria.

    This mistake sort of changes the meaning a bit, but the freeware debate is still valid and I have found it very interesting.

    I also didn't realise that you need a publisher id for express signed. As this is $200 a year plus $20 each time you want to release an update, it looks very unlikely that Mobbler will be signed, be on the ovi app store, or get those nice extra features we'd planned on doing one day.

    I will try to speak to David Wood and/or Antony Edwards about this though as I think it is rather important to encourage easy freeware app development, not only for signing and distribution, but for everything that is needed during development, such as on-target debugging etc etc.

    Michael

  15. #15
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    Re: Express Signed

    Quote Originally Posted by eartle View Post

    I will try to speak to David Wood and/or Antony Edwards about this though as I think it is rather important to encourage easy freeware app development, not only for signing and distribution, but for everything that is needed during development, such as on-target debugging etc etc.
    Excellent steps have been taken in this direction but there is still room for improvement. Free SDKs + free tools (Carbide.c++ and ODD now freely available) is great but Open Signed Online will kill your enthusiasm as soon as you start thinking about it ...

    But then again, things are not as bad as they might seem from the narrow view of Forum Nokia's discussion boards. Look at you as an example, you have a great app out and only 10 or so posts on this DiBo, sign that we're not seeing a lot of the good developers out there and we don't know their stories/problems ...
    -- Lucian

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