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  1. #1
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    N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    Hi,
    MAEMO is an incredible device but it lacks MIDP...
    A phone that lacks MIDP is not a really good device imho...

    Is there some plan from nokia to port MIDP support on maemo?

  2. #2
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    why wouldn't it be a good devie ?
    Tell Apple and Google that they don't have good devices/OS's owh and while you're up it, tell it their milions of users as well

  3. #3
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger79 View Post
    why wouldn't it be a good devie ?
    Tell Apple and Google that they don't have good devices/OS's owh and while you're up it, tell it their milions of users as well
    I have just told it to them...
    A modern phone that lacks MIDP is a modern phone that lacks one of the most
    important platform for mobile...

  4. #4
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    ok,
    but why is it one of the most important platforms if I masy ask ?
    Is it only because of the sold number of devices ? Because they don't have to be network-connected thus making distribution of applications a nightmare ? Is it because of the lacking GUI-possibilities ?
    MIDP 2.0 is antiquated, and as long as MIDP 3.0 doesn't show up it simply cannot cope with the neweer platfroms (iPhone OS, Android, MAEMO and even Palm WebOS)...
    What I mean to say is : why should Nokia continue to keep up MIDP support whilst other manufacturers are gaining up market share by introducing more appealing technologies ? I mean, back-compatibility might be a point, but noone cares nowadays because it's all about the hypes of the 0-day apps (Nokia as well with the http://blogs.nokia.com/mydailyapp/)...

  5. #5
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger79 View Post
    ok,
    but why is it one of the most important platforms if I masy ask ?
    Is it only because of the sold number of devices ? Because they don't have to be network-connected thus making distribution of applications a nightmare ? Is it because of the lacking GUI-possibilities ?
    MIDP 2.0 is antiquated, and as long as MIDP 3.0 doesn't show up it simply cannot cope with the neweer platfroms (iPhone OS, Android, MAEMO and even Palm WebOS)...
    What I mean to say is : why should Nokia continue to keep up MIDP support whilst other manufacturers are gaining up market share by introducing more appealing technologies ? I mean, back-compatibility might be a point, but noone cares nowadays because it's all about the hypes of the 0-day apps (Nokia as well with the http://blogs.nokia.com/mydailyapp/)...
    This is only your point of view but nothing more...
    If you are able enough MIDP 2.1 is powerful enough to write good software for mobile.
    You can't compare android, maemo, webos with MIDP...
    A JavaME software can run on more than 900 phones all over the world also on phone starting from 50€,
    this is not true for other platform...
    JavaME is well supported on Symbian phones, Windows Mobile phones, features phones and BlackBerry OS.
    Writing a software for platform like Android is a waste of time and money
    http://larvalabs.com/blog/iphone/android-market-sales
    writing apps for iphone is quite good but it's preferable if you write games or stupid software for kids on iphone if you want to sell something...

    If you tell us that today there is no need for MIDP implementation on a phone that runs an OS like maemo or android, for me there is no need to argue

  6. #6
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    I think it's fair to say that MIDP doesn't meet the needs of application development for today's high-end devices.

    (That said, most Windows Mobile devices ship with MIDP. Microsoft don't support it, so it is added by the manufacturer or operator. So someone thinks it's a value-adding feature...)

    What is a shame is that no one sees the progression from CLDC/MIDP to CDC/PP. I don't think I'm the only person who sees Java as preferable to C++ for application development, and Personal Profile Java provides a much more "J2SE"-like experience.

    Nokia Communicator devices used to support PersonalJava (Personal Profile's predecessor), and it would be great to see this kind of support on touch-screen S60s and Maemo devices.

    It's a pity Google felt it necessary to invent a whole new flavour of Java, incompatible with any standard, and completely unfamiliar to the world's millions of Java developers.

    It's a pity Apple actively prevent you from using Java, by forbidding you from installing a Java runtime.

    Graham.

  7. #7
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamhughes View Post
    I think it's fair to say that MIDP doesn't meet the needs of application development for today's high-end devices.

    (That said, most Windows Mobile devices ship with MIDP. Microsoft don't support it, so it is added by the manufacturer or operator. So someone thinks it's a value-adding feature...)

    What is a shame is that no one sees the progression from CLDC/MIDP to CDC/PP. I don't think I'm the only person who sees Java as preferable to C++ for application development, and Personal Profile Java provides a much more "J2SE"-like experience.

    Nokia Communicator devices used to support PersonalJava (Personal Profile's predecessor), and it would be great to see this kind of support on touch-screen S60s and Maemo devices.

    It's a pity Google felt it necessary to invent a whole new flavour of Java, incompatible with any standard, and completely unfamiliar to the world's millions of Java developers.

    It's a pity Apple actively prevent you from using Java, by forbidding you from installing a Java runtime.

    Graham.
    I completely agree with you, it is just what I'm thinking...
    Anyway I think that SUN is going to do a good work with JavaME MIDP CLDC, OpenGL ES + Vector Graphics + JavaFX is the answer to unleash the power of Java.

  8. #8
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    Quote Originally Posted by sblantipodi View Post
    This is only your point of view but nothing more...
    If you are able enough MIDP 2.1 is powerful enough to write good software for mobile.
    True, it's just a shame that MIDP 2.1 isn't on that many mobiles

    You can't compare android, maemo, webos with MIDP...
    A JavaME software can run on more than 900 phones all over the world also on phone starting from 50€,
    this is not true for other platform...
    True again, but I was mentioning the whole platform (Android with MArketplace, iPhone with Appstore), and then you got MIDP with ? what ? nothing really... No good user-friendly, and single (as in one) universal place to get your stuff... And then yet you will have several JAR's for example for every device/platform...
    So you got 900 devices which (might) support your application (after several years of developing I have learned that it's definitely NOT write-once run-everywhere) but how do you get your app on those devices ?

    JavaME is well supported on Symbian phones, Windows Mobile phones, features phones and BlackBerry OS.
    Writing a software for platform like Android is a waste of time and money
    http://larvalabs.com/blog/iphone/android-market-sales
    Symbian : true, WIM not really... It actually supports MIDP but there it also ends... You want to do anything a little cool (let's say get GPS coordinates from your integrated GPS-chip) then it's a no-go !
    Btw about the android Market... Thats why you and I are developers and not marketeers You are looking at the statistics which don't look too good at this moment.. BUT, those are continueasly rising Also, I look at the future and what I see are all mayor brands are actually gonan ship (or are just shipping) Android devices... Though it looks like the market is only gonna grow, and where you see a not rendable platform ATM, innovating people do see an opportunity, and those who actually dare to invest in that are the ones who will get the cash after all

    writing apps for iphone is quite good but it's preferable if you write games or stupid software for kids on iphone if you want to sell something...
    thats your opinion, actually I've seen pretty handy applications on the iPhone... Again, try to tell that to a merketeer and he will laugh about it... I also think it's a little too easy to publish apps but on the other hand they do have a real quality-control department where bugs and stability are checked, contrary to MarketPlace for example...
    Still it;s not about the quality it's about the revenue, and thats what makes businesses go around, not if an app is stupid or not...

    If you tell us that today there is no need for MIDP implementation on a phone that runs an OS like maemo or android, for me there is no need to argue
    Well that one is easy, never said that
    I was just going into your "stated facts"
    "A phone that lacks MIDP is not a really good device imho..." and "A modern phone that lacks MIDP is a modern phone that lacks one of the most important platform for mobile... " and asked why you had this opinion

  9. #9
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger79 View Post
    True, it's just a shame that MIDP 2.1 isn't on that many mobiles
    So you got 900 devices which (might) support your application (after several years of developing I have learned that it's definitely NOT write-once run-everywhere) but how do you get your app on those devices ?
    Jbenchmark runs on more than 900 phones with one jar...
    my software (canvas UI) runs on more than 450 phones with one jar...
    opera mini supports thousands of phones with two jar...
    Is this enough for you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger79 View Post
    Symbian : true, WIM not really...
    Sun is moving to runs JavaFX on WindowsMobile so I think that we will see some interesting
    java things on this os.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger79 View Post
    thats your opinion, actually I've seen pretty handy applications on the iPhone... Again, try to tell that to a merketeer and he will laugh about it... I also think it's a little too easy to publish apps but on the other hand they do have a real quality-control department where bugs and stability are checked, contrary to MarketPlace for example...
    Still it;s not about the quality it's about the revenue, and thats what makes businesses go around, not if an app is stupid or not...
    You're right, but I think that iPhone is a stupid FAT market
    really good to make money with kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger79 View Post
    Well that one is easy, never said that
    I was just going into your "stated facts"
    "A phone that lacks MIDP is not a really good device imho..." and "A modern phone that lacks MIDP is a modern phone that lacks one of the most important platform for mobile... " and asked why you had this opinion
    Sure, it's true, a phone that doesn't support MIDP is not an excellent device because it lacks one of the most
    important platform for mobile...
    Why JavaME is the most important platform?
    Because the phones that doesn't support it can be counted on fingers, bacause it's quite easy to use, powerful enough for modern phones.

  10. #10
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    Jbenchmark runs on more than 900 phones with one jar...
    my software (canvas UI) runs on more than 450 phones with one jar...
    opera mini supports thousands of phones with two jar...
    Is this enough for you?
    Well yes the basic MIDP 2.0 stuff (like Canvas) will run on most devices if coded decently... Anything more "interesting" (think of less basic API's, for example Location API's, SVG Api's etc) won't be guaranteed to work, which might (or might not) completely make your application useless...

    Still my last point stands : how do you get those apps on your device ? There is no good distribution method/network...

    Sun is moving to runs JavaFX on WindowsMobile so I think that we will see some interesting
    java things on this os.
    Is that standard MIdp ? What about the mentioned 900 devices who don't have it right now ? Do they get an update ? And how do they get an update because most Java devices (especially cheaper low-end) most probably won't have an internet subscription... Will they even support it ?

    Sure, it's true, a phone that doesn't support MIDP is not an excellent device because it lacks one of the most
    important platform for mobile...
    Why JavaME is the most important platform?
    Because the phones that doesn't support it can be counted on fingers, bacause it's quite easy to use, powerful enough for modern phones.
    Still not convinced.. I mean it's not like the other platforms aren't as easy to use (actually Android software development is easier than J2ME especially regarding all optional API's of J2ME, not to mention the integration of loads of services)... Those other platforms are at least as "powerfull"...
    Whilst I'm reading it sounds to me like : MIDP is the most important because it was the first one on a large basis... Which is correct, but that doesn't mean we have to hang there, there is something called evolution (or revolution when speaking about the iPhone)... If everyone though like that we should never ever have stepped away from VHS and audio cassettes... Those were powerfull enough, at the beginning you could count dvd players on the fingers of one hand,and they were just as easy to use...
    Last edited by Tiger79; 2009-09-21 at 14:22.

  11. #11
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    Hmmm... I don't want to use JavaFX... I (like many other developers) have invested a good deal of time acquiring Java skills, and also use Java on other platforms (mobile and non-mobile). I don't want to use another language just for a couple of platforms. I want to re-use code across platforms.

    Graham.

  12. #12
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger79 View Post
    Well yes the basic MIDP 2.0 stuff (like Canvas) will run on most devices if coded decently... Anything more "interesting" (think of less basic API's, for example Location API's, SVG Api's etc) won't be guaranteed to work, which might (or might not) completely make your application useless...
    It's simple, if you want the complete compatibility don't use this APIs

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger79 View Post
    (or revolution when speaking about the iPhone)... If everyone though like that we should never ever have stepped away from VHS and audio cassettes... Those were powerfull enough, at the beginning you could count dvd players on the fingers of one hand,and they were just as easy to use...
    for me, there is no need to argue anymore
    If you tell us that iPhone is a revolution and that JavaME is the VHS vs the DVD (android/iphone)
    this is a stupid fanboysm

  13. #13
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamhughes View Post
    Hmmm... I don't want to use JavaFX... I (like many other developers) have invested a good deal of time acquiring Java skills, and also use Java on other platforms (mobile and non-mobile). I don't want to use another language just for a couple of platforms. I want to re-use code across platforms.

    Graham.
    Ok don't use it
    it's not mandatory but it's has much as easy of writing UI with HTML/CSS
    so you may change opinion in the next future

  14. #14
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    Quote Originally Posted by sblantipodi View Post
    It's simple, if you want the complete compatibility don't use this APIs
    And what if you want compatibility, and you don't want to write a trivial application?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblantipodi View Post
    If you tell us that iPhone is a revolution and that JavaME is the VHS vs the DVD (android/iphone)
    this is a stupid fanboysm
    I think that's unfair. MIDP was designed for extremely restricted devices, and many phones now simply don't fall into that category. High-end phones now are as powerful as desktop computers were ten years ago. You don't use MIDP for desktop development.

    Quote Originally Posted by sblantipodi View Post
    Ok don't use it
    it's not mandatory but it's has much as easy of writing UI with HTML/CSS
    so you may change opinion in the next future
    Whether or not it is mandatory depends on what other options there are. How easy it is to use is not the question. I want to make money, and that means making more from selling apps than I spend developing them. Since I'm a software engineer, my principle concern is minimizing the development costs. The cheapest option is to use one programming language for all devices. Each additional language means another strand to the project, more developer-hours, more tester-hours, more cost. This is not about fanboyism, how "cool" a particular language is, or how nice a UI I can build. It's about hard, commercial realities.

    Graham.

  15. #15
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    Re: N900 MAEMO and Midp...

    It's simple, if you want the complete compatibility don't use this APIs


    for me, there is no need to argue anymore
    If you tell us that iPhone is a revolution and that JavaME is the VHS vs the DVD (android/iphone)
    this is a stupid fanboysm
    Ok to begin with, im not arguing, I'm having a conversation here...
    Not using those API's definitely might be an option (after all one of the biggest known problems of J2ME is device defragmentation, which btw is non-existent in the other mentioned platforms), but do you really want a high-end 500 dollar device with GPS, and all kind of nice media stuff and then you have to fall back to the standard MIDP functionality ? So then stop making fancy phones which you can't even use the nice exotic and modern hardware because it cannot be used by MIDP...
    About the fanboyism, well you could look at it that way... Personally I'm a J2ME developer, my company also develops for iPhone but I have decided not to develop for that platform.. I don't own a Mac, nor an iPhone, I do have an iPod Touch for my music, if that makes me a fanboy I'm guilty as charged... Guess you are a Coca-Cola fanboy or an Axe fanboy if you ever used/drank any of their products...
    I was merely giving an example on how history learned us not to keep hanging onto old platforms, but that comparison with vhs/dvd was only if I interpreted your reasons for MIDP being the best platform correctly, thats also why I specifically mentioned what I was interpreting ("Whilst I'm reading it sounds to me like : MIDP is the most important because it was the first one on a large basis")...
    Personally I actually do think that we are comparing an old platform which needs some good work on it (and fast too!) against a new platform. MIDP 3.0 has been in a draft phase for about 5-6 years now, and it seems to be dying a slow death, the other mentioned platforms on the other hand...
    Btw, i'm just curious herre, why is it a fanboyism in your opinion ? I have given several reasons why I think it's like that (better distribution, much better API's/possibilities, integration of services, "alive" platform) whilst you on the other hand aren't actually giving any good reasons nor explanations. It would be nice that you give some arguments to back up your statements...

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