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  1. #1
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    Unhappy Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    Assuming permission from oviJude I will post an email conversation which I think is of interest for all (and is not done yet).
    Unfortunately I have no copy of my initial bug feedback since I submitted it over the publishing platform's 'Contact Us' web form (and unfortunately the answer did not include it), but I'll reconstruct it from memory:

    Read it bottom-up between the dashed lines:

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear oviJude,

    please do not just restate what the reporting interface tells me. And after 20 years in software businesses I have no illusions about selling/not selling products. But I still think that the following is hard to ignore:

    You tell me the download device percentages are triggered by test downloads:
    1. For instance, 'The Diamond (red)' has percentages shown that imply a minimum of forty(!) downloads (that's just mathematics, a number of 2,3% shown for one device even implies way more if calculated exactly). Are you telling me you 'test'-download more than forty times per product? Wow, the trust in your own system must be great.
    2. Why are those 'test'-downloads so unbalanced? If you're testing your own system - see above (wow...). If you're testing my software, why are not all devices the software is distributed to listed in the statistics, evenly balanced?
    3. The numbers are changing from day to day. Do you keep 'test'-downloading even after the software has been published? If yes, why so unbalanced?
    4. What are those device statistics good for if you're influencing them and obviously keep influencing them big time?

    People are TELLING me they bought the software:
    5. Are all those reviews fake?
    6. Are all those emails I receive fake?
    7. What makes you so sure that I didn't myself 'test'-buy my own software, just to make sure that I'm not fantasizing here?

    More than once there were reporting issues with OVI store: sales numbers were not showing up, suddenly they were there, I experienced this myself.

    All of the above stated facts can only lead to the conclusion that there's something wrong, either with your system of 'test'-downloading, with your reporting interface, with your answers to my questions or with mathematics in general and my perception of real life. Note that I'm not asking why I'm not generating sales. I'm asking if you really can be sure about your own system. You couldn't before all your updates, so how is this different now?

    Still hoping for answers,
    Regards,
    Florian Kaeding
    kaedinger

    ___________________
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    m +49.177.7.942757
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    -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
    Von: PublishToOvi.Support@nokia.com [mailto:PublishToOvi.Support@nokia.com]
    Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2009 01:24
    An: Florian Käding
    Betreff: Re: [CPP production] Feedback: Bug

    Dear Florian,
    Additional note to the % shown in the OVI report but no revenue figure is because that's the download from our testing. In our testing, we trigger the download but we are not purchasing it.
    Regards,
    oviJude
    ____________________________________
    Hi Florian,
    Thanks for your request.
    There are 2 contents of yours have several sales on them. There are another 4 contents do not have any sales. The 3 out of 4 contents that do not have any sales are published on Dec 4. Another 1 is published today dec 7. There are several reasons why there is no sales on them. One possible reason might be the price is too high compare to other items of the same category. Another reason might be the distribution of the content might not be wide enough.

    The device percentage shown are just for the 2 contents that draw sales on. For example in summary report, click on k-search, it shows you the % for each device of K-search sales.

    Regards,
    oviJude
    OVI Publisher Support Manager



    ---- Original inquiry (memory reconstruction)
    Hello support, why do I see device percentages listed in the reports for certain content items when at the same time there are zero sales?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    So far I didn't receive an answer to my last letter, but let me add this here (using the reference number from my last email):

    1+3. The device percentages of the item 'The Diamond (red)' have changed again since yesterday, implying more than fifty downloads (the lowest percentage shown for a device is 1,9%). Do they keep 'test'-downloading?
    2. 'Test'-downloads do obviously not happen for every device the software is distributed to - for 'The Diamond (red)' only 3 out of 7 devices are shown (it's only seven because the software is restricted to a certain screen resolution).
    3. Another content item that had no devices reported yesterday ('WallBert') does have devices reported today: to six different devices, the (again unbalanced) figures implying at least 20 downloads while sales are still on zero.
    5. I keep getting reviews about content items (that show zero sales) that imply that the software has been bought. Note that I'm not referring to the typical 'this is rubbish don't buy' and 'great' reviews, but detailed reviews that go beyond what is in the public description. How is this possible if no one bought it (and so far the software is NOT available anywhere else)?
    7. I did test-buy my own applications.

    I won't tell here which or how many, because somehow I have the feeling that something is going terribly wrong here. What am I going to do if my test(s) do not show up in the sales reports by tomorrow (they should have been there today already)?

    Regards,
    Florian Kaeding

    ___________________
    : kaedinger
    t +49.871.942757.1
    m +49.177.7.942757
    w kaedinger.de
    Last edited by kaedinger; 2009-12-10 at 04:45. Reason: unfinished sentence

  2. #2
    Nokia Developer Moderator
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    Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    Dear publisher,

    I just went to publish to OVI and search for your application The diamond (red) and it shows it has revenues of around 90 euro as of today. So maybe at the time you and I were looking at it, the sales was not captured yet.

    Please note that sales report updated daily.

    If you have further question, please email us publishtoovi.support@nokia.com.

    Regards,
    oviJude
    OVI Publisher Support

  3. #3
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    Unhappy Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    oviJude,

    please see the other thread for my comments about the daily updating of the reports. You proved that wrong yourself.

    But allow me one more question: why do you need to tell me stories about 'test'-downloads? Am I really the only one that notices inconsistencies in the reports, so that you do not see it necessary to investigate?

    It would have been waaay better if you just had admitted that the reporting tool does not (always) work within the parameters Nokia specified, and maybe even could have provided me with the real numbers (that obviously existed - we both see them now). You preferred evasive stories.

    Satisfaction points on OVI store and OVI support did NOT level up.

    Regards,
    kaedinger

  4. #4
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    Cool Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    Here we go again.

    The content item I am talking about this time is 'TwitterPiccer'. I received the 'passed QA' mail last Friday at 9 o'clock in the morning. The item was live in OVI store in the evening of the same day. I did a test buy myself, as usual, because I am quite used to sales not showing up - see all this threads around here...

    Now for the interesting bit, please look at the attached screen shot. Note that the device percentages indicate at least 20 sales in February, i.e. in a maximum of three days. At the same time the page indicates ZERO purchases (along with zero revenue).

    I know that sooner or later the sales will show up - at least they did every single time with the last published items. The question is: when? And why are the sales for themselves not counted, but the sales on the devices are?

    Let me tell you this: if I would present this kind of data to MY business partners, they'd think I'm an idiot.

    OVI store brings a (crooked) smile to my face. Every day.


  5. #5
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    Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    This is nothing, man. You have failed to impress me. I've seen that and more

    For example: in January, the number of sales as calculated from the 'per-device' list ( take the least popular device, assume that means 1 sale, calculate total number of sales - and yes, I do take into account rounding so I *can* calculate the sales precisely this way ) was about 10% more than the number reported in the 'per-country' and 'total' lists ( those two matched ). So I figured, well, they probably have a bug where in the 'per-device' list they count their test-downloads or something ( which in itself is bad enough, because if they have bugs like that, how are we supposed to be sure they do not have bugs elsewhere in this whole reporting mess? )

    Now in February, the number of sales as calculated from the 'per-device' list suddenly was 60% more than the one taken from 'per-country' ; more: the most popular device supposedly was... N73! Yes, the obscure model which did not register a single sale in January, in February suddenly was king with 47% of sales. WTF?

    I've got another app published on Feb 23rd ( one week ago! ) which still has 0 sales despite a few reviews, a few support emails, and at least 34 sales according to 'per-device' list ( which however as we all know is utter bullshit )

    Better: I've got another app , published only for S60 3rd edition. In February, this app's the 3rd most popular device with 8.2% of sales supposedly was... Nokia 5800 Xpress Music, a S60 5th Edition thing
    Last edited by Utumno; 2010-03-01 at 15:04.

  6. #6
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    Unhappy Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    Hey Utumno, the only target I want to impress here is Nokia itself )

    The problem itself here is a lot deeper, though. I have generated several thousand sales so far. But there are no two places that correspond over the total numbers. Devices - countries - payments - statistics - reporting, even personal mails from support (see further down the thread), they all tell me different stories. And I don't know what they are trying to achieve. Either they want to hide something... or they really don't know. Both alternatives are quite scary, IMHO.

    What DOES correspond though is, that after requesting information (I quite desperately need information about the last payment I received before I can do my taxes properly), and sometimes even getting answers (thanks oviJude), support all of a sudden stops responding. Again and again and again.

    So, Nokia, what are we to do? Go to the tax office and let them laugh, because of course they'll believe that the world wide business corporation that Nokia claims to be does not get their numbers right? And when I tell them that the only contact we, the developers and business partners, have, does not answer our inquiries, they of course will believe that, too.

    All they see is money coming from Nokia, and when I tell them that I cannot give details about what the money is for, and that I don't even know how many copies I sold from my software, but it wouldn't matter if I did because I don't know how much I got from each sale, or when they have been generated (which I need to know to do my taxes), they'll laugh even harder and arrest me, because I am trying to convince them that I want to do everything right, and Nokia, NOKIA(!) fails to do so.

    I really cannot find this too funny anymore.

    kaedinger

  7. #7
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    Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    I can tell you more: I suspect the 'per-country' list is not right, either.

    One of my apps has an option where users can save their highscores to my server. Quite a few users have done so, and every time someone contacts my server, apart from the highscore I also send the following:

    - user's smsc ( so I know which country he is from )
    - number of times ha has played the game

    In my server's logs I keep seeing people playing for the first time ( so almost for sure this is right after the sale ) report their highscores from countries that are not in the 'per-country' list. There are only 3 explanations for this:

    - Nokia loses sales
    - someone has my game pirated, but I haven't been able to find it anywhere and I've been looking hard.
    - initially I thought that was Nokia's internal testing, but now I don't think so because it keeps coming from all over the world ( countries like Indonesia, Serbia, Ecuador, China ) long after the game has been published and most of those users later on save their highscores again, so it really does not look like those are Nokia's employees...
    Last edited by Utumno; 2010-03-01 at 15:52.

  8. #8
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    Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    I have to suggest something I found out: these stats (device) seem to be realtime. Once, I saw four sales in the month, but had a device at 20% and another at 80%. And indeed, in a few hours, they were 5.

    Theoreitcally, this could be RT...
    The lines above are the best I have to offer.If anyone of you is of more advanced knowledge, I ask for your patience and understanding! - unknown arab poet
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  9. #9
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    Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    Realtime? How does that explain Nokia 5800 Xpress supposedly being the 3rd most popular device to download my s60 3rd-edition only app, or an obscure N73 having 47% of sales of another app ( which is published for pretty much everything, including N97, E71, N95 and all the other popular phones )

  10. #10
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    Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    Meanwhile, like it always does, the sales showed up, also for February. I have no problems with delays if they get explained to me.

    1) Why is there a delay of about a week until the first sales show up?
    2) Why do subsequent sales (almost every time) show up a maximum of 24 hours later? (--> What's the difference between 1 and 2?)
    3) Why are other statistics (devices/countries) updated relatively close to their effecting cause? (--> What's the difference between 1, 2 and 3?)

    Nokia, what you tell us is this:

    We do know we have sold 20 pieces for N97, 15 copies for the XM5800, 38 for the N95, and each of E61, N95 8GB, E70 received two copies.
    And we do know that the total number of sales is 0. Zero. Therefore the estimated revenue is also 0. Zero. Zilch. Nada.


    You must really think we're dumb. (Not to mention my neverending story concerning statistics about sales, and how they're connected to my payments, payments which only show up after I ask for them... but that's another thread currently taking place with support. If I finally figured it out with them (after two years or so...) I'll update you here.)

  11. #11
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    Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    Nokia hasn't admitted this, but my suspicion about why the 'per-device' list gets updated faster is the following:

    They probably do get more-or-less realtime sales data, but they are having problems with knowing if a particular sale was done with a credit card, or operator billing. (think about that: they have to cooperate with a lot of regional branches of quite a few credit card companies and with a lot of operators) Maybe even they do not know fast enough where the sale was made, or with which operator. Without knowing that, they cannot calculate the 'estimated revenue' as that depends on all of the above.

  12. #12
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    Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    While you may be right about what Nokia may think, I disagree with the effect:

    The download/purchase has been done. At that point of time, even the exact amount of money may be unknown, but that's why it's called 'Estimated revenue', not 'That's what you get, buddy'. But the sale has been executed, and the number of purchases should go up. That's just it.

  13. #13
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    Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    Quote Originally Posted by Utumno View Post
    Realtime? How does that explain Nokia 5800 Xpress supposedly being the 3rd most popular device to download my s60 3rd-edition only app, or an obscure N73 having 47% of sales of another app ( which is published for pretty much everything, including N97, E71, N95 and all the other popular phones )
    Hi,
    ad a, I can not explain.

    \As for the N73: do NOT underestimate this old coot. It is still used every day on the road in Austria!! If you look at AdMob's data, it also is almost in every toplist!
    The lines above are the best I have to offer.If anyone of you is of more advanced knowledge, I ask for your patience and understanding! - unknown arab poet
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    webOS blog iPhone blog BlackBerry blog Samsung bada blog Android blog

  14. #14
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    Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    While the 'N73' app is not a blazing success, it did register about 100 downloads in both January and February, and in January N73 did not register a single sale. It suddenly shoot up to about 47 downloads in February. Now, the only thing that could explain this is that maybe N73 happens to be immensely popular among grizzly bears who, early February, en masse woke up from their winter sleep and are craving for entertainment.

    But then again, we have an unusually long winter this year, so shouldn't they still be sleeping? /Me scratches his head...

  15. #15
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    Re: Reporting: downloads ./. device percentages

    I would try getting N73 yourself and seeing how it is displayed on it, could indeed be that you got some sales and when viewing Ovi with N73, your app is on the top of the most selling list, i.e. all application not supporting good old OS 9.1 are not there, thus you would be more up than with other devices..

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