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  1. #1
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    When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    Whilst C# is very pretty, we have alot of tried, tested, debugged, deployed s/w in regular, normal standard C/C++ - It does not need any 'melt the batteries', reformat the SIM, reboot the phone, access kernel level theads structures or anything else even vaguely 'system like' unless you count basic stuff like malloc, free and standard C++ language features such as exceptions.

    Its already technically possible to have C++ 'dlls' or whatever you want to call them in C# land, build into back of C# - in similar fashion to Java and JNI - except it seems to be banned in WP7 for some reason.

    So when will C/C++ be supported so we can limit the commerical damage transferring to WP7 ?

  2. #2
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    It is doubtful that support/no support would really depend on Nokia.

  3. #3
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    I've had some non-official comments from Microsoft, that they are thinking how they could enable this without compromising the current security model. It won't be in Mango, but the feature set for Apollo (WP8) has not been set yet. There's an official developer feedback channel for Windows Phone, where developers can suggest and vote the suggestions - I think that is the best way for us to influence. It's located here: Developer feedback program

  4. #4
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    Thaks for the pointer.

    Weve added our 10p worth to the discussion.

    Would also encourage all developers that need c/c++ support to follow the link + vote

  5. #5
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    Have casted my vote. No doubt about it that support for C would make programming so much easier.
    To live is divine.

  6. #6
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    Currently MS will only support NET development for WP7 and future versions. You have 2 options: Silverlight, XNA (same API as XBOX and PC) and a mix of both.

    Personally I'm focusing on LOB apps so I'm exploring SL development.

    One of the great things about .NET is that you can choose your language. Currently you can use VB or C#. C# is in many aspects similar to C++ and Java. This means that any dev comming from C / C++ or Java will be more or less at home with some training. Its easier to move from Java to C# than from C++ to C#, but still it could be worst.

    Cheers

  7. #7
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    As far as OS is concerned it has been developed in c++ only so there will not be much hassle in having c++ support like WM or Windows itself
    They might bring this support in future like on Android one has ndk and java sdk much similar in approach , you could use c++ for lower level stuff like writing network hooks

  8. #8
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    Technically WP7 builds on Windows CE which is programmed in C (on the kernel level at least), but this is certainly not the practical cause. Isolation of processes and their resources may have more to do with this question. Like Android realizes process isolation via the multi-user support of the underlying Linux. Windows CE does not necessarily have such feature or anything similar, and in this case isolation may appear on VM level only.

  9. #9
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    To answer John's original question: "So when will C/C++ be supported (...)?"

    Short answer: never. just invest in c++ => c# converters, that's going to be fastest route since you can't port UI as it will be rejected from the market (if you don't follow guidelines)

    Long answer: if you're a big company like Electronic Arts or Vodaphone - you can sign a deal w MS to use native code & libraries, but that has to be backed up by a really good business reason.

    Even longer answer: C# and Silverlight aren't going anywhere - Consider moving apps to silverlight and deply it on browser and desktop, that way you'll only have to adapt the UI for the phone. Moving to .net stack has some disadvantages - like being dependent on one technology, but the development is much, much, much faster.

  10. #10
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    Can you tell us in what capacity you are operating when saying std C/C++ will 'never' be supported ? This appears to contradict earlier statements - is this newly formulated policy from somewhere ?

    Presumably your statement on C#/Silverlight not going anywhere is intended to mean they will be around for quite a while as opposed to them having no future at all ?.

    Appreciate we have to re-write all UIs in whatever, thats not the problem. Its all the product engines + associated test code - no UI code at all.
    Sure C# may be the future, may be easy to learn + be generally wonderful in all other respects, but thats not really the point. We have quite literally 100s of 000s of lines of AI code from 100s of man yrs of development in the portfolio.
    Previous use of automatic languge converters simply ends up producing totally unmaintainable code base so thats not really a viable route forwards for us.

    It seems odd that practically every other smartphone platform has either supported C/C++ day 1, moved to support C/C++ or is about to support it , e.g. Android+NDK, bada, Symbian, palmos, webOS+PDK, RIM+QNX, iOS, WinMo, (S40 via Qt ?) yet you are saying that even though C# has the built in ability to support C++ its never going to be supported ?.

    Can you define what a 'really good business case' would be ? - currently its the difference between supporting the WP platform and not supporting the platform. Seems a pretty substantial case to us. Does anyone else care, probably only our several million customers. Whilst were not an Operator or top 5 rev generating developer, we believe we are in the top 100 Ovi store developers based on downloads.... so who should we contact at MS ?

    Its unclear to us how this policy encourages developers to support the WP platform when we can target 6 or so other smartphone platforms (let alone some non smartphone platforms) simultaneously. 10 seconds business analysis 1: all eggs in 1 basket with WP7, business analysis 2: amortize engine development/support/maintanence/upgrades across 6 platforms so if some fail still have others to fall back on.

    Even the bank manager can work that one out...

  11. #11
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    Taken from this thread

    if you're interested in C/C++ support", you should vote here: http://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/11...-sdk?ref=title

  12. #12
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    Quote Originally Posted by John.Holloway View Post
    Can you tell us in what capacity you are operating when saying std C/C++ will 'never' be supported ? This appears to contradict earlier statements - is this newly formulated policy from somewhere ?
    This is what I've heard from one of the MS devs - I presume if devs bang on the MS door loud enough you'll be heard. After all MS is more dev than costumer centric. The other thing is that if you compare how much time it takes to certify an app in WP7 vs iOS - I believe that's due to ObjectiveC on the iOS and if you follow MS research you'd know that they have A LOT of static code analyzers for managed code - you can check the Singularity OS research project (an os writen in c#) which is really interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by John.Holloway View Post
    Presumably your statement on C#/Silverlight not going anywhere is intended to mean they will be around for quite a while as opposed to them having no future at all ?.
    What I meant to say is that investing in c# + silverlight is not a risk as MS has put a load of $$$ into it and I do really believe that this is a great piece of technology. Just check how fast silverlight is developing (it's been first released in 2007).

    Quote Originally Posted by John.Holloway View Post
    Appreciate we have to re-write all UIs in whatever, thats not the problem. Its all the product engines + associated test code - no UI code at all.
    Sure C# may be the future, may be easy to learn + be generally wonderful in all other respects, but thats not really the point. We have quite literally 100s of 000s of lines of AI code from 100s of man yrs of development in the portfolio.
    Previous use of automatic languge converters simply ends up producing totally unmaintainable code base so thats not really a viable route forwards for us.
    Yes, you are totally right. I don't know what you do in your business but mobile development shouldn't be that big? I mean... how big your mobile app can be? I agree that converters create frankensteins, but if you still develop your main branch in c++ and then just before every major release you do conversion+porting - then converters shouldn't be such a problem. As I've said - I don't know what you are doing, so please keep in mind that I'm just speculating.

    Quote Originally Posted by John.Holloway View Post
    It seems odd that practically every other smartphone platform has either supported C/C++ day 1, moved to support C/C++ or is about to support it , e.g. Android+NDK, bada, Symbian, palmos, webOS+PDK, RIM+QNX, iOS, WinMo, (S40 via Qt ?) yet you are saying that even though C# has the built in ability to support C++ its never going to be supported ?.
    First of all WP is still pretty young compared to other os'es. If you look at Android after the same period... I remember that the os was just useless and it didn't support c++. The other thing is that I do really believe that we need to move past c++. Yes I know how that sounds, but hear me out. You'll have more and more cores, more memory, etc. It's better for the VM to handle concurrency, memory, type checking, overflow checking etc. Yes, it comes at some cost, but if you thing about c++ vs. asm - cpp comes at a cost too... it's just a matter of "letting go". For sure there is a lot of code that is out there and the shift is probably going to be really slow and for example video games will probably never shift to a managed code, but you have to keep in mind that our industry will move forward - it's just a matter of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by John.Holloway View Post
    Can you define what a 'really good business case' would be ? - currently its the difference between supporting the WP platform and not supporting the platform. Seems a pretty substantial case to us. Does anyone else care, probably only our several million customers. Whilst were not an Operator or top 5 rev generating developer, we believe we are in the top 100 Ovi store developers based on downloads.... so who should we contact at MS ?
    Well I can't since I don't know... I'm just a developer and these are the things that I hear. I don't know if you should contact MS - I'm not in business and I'd prefer to keep my hands clean of anything related to that I'm pretty sure if you can't achieve your goals with managed code MS will give you access to mixed environment, but I'm sure they will not give you everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by John.Holloway View Post
    Its unclear to us how this policy encourages developers to support the WP platform when we can target 6 or so other smartphone platforms (let alone some non smartphone platforms) simultaneously. 10 seconds business analysis 1: all eggs in 1 basket with WP7, business analysis 2: amortize engine development/support/maintanence/upgrades across 6 platforms so if some fail still have others to fall back on.

    Even the bank manager can work that one out...
    Well I guess that having a flashy platform with little competition in the market is a huge advantage. Some of my friends tried creating a company around building games for iOS - even though the games they've made weren't bad they just couldn't reach their customers... there's just too much stuff there. So it depends on your business strategy I guess and in my opinion users don't change phones/platforms as they used in the past, so if you've got your users on other platforms, then "conquering a new world" is a good enough business reason. But as I've said before - I'm not a businessman.


    The approach with "is cpp supported", "will java be supported" etc. has some really weak points:

    1. The tools that are for wp7 are really, really great. Had 3 devs + 2 testers that didn't know anything about c# + silverlight and after a month they were fluent in technology and we've made a really nice internet radio music player.
    2. Waiting for a technology to be supported is a waste of time - building an app from ground up is _really_ easy and your competition can be first in the market as you wait for technology X to be supported

  13. #13
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    Miechu: you are new here, but so is this board. Just open http://www.developer.nokia.com/Commu...ment-Platforms, it has 26 threads now, check the other platforms too.
    Generally neither of you (you as person and this board) would be here if Nokia, after spending 10+ years into Symbian development and promising neverending life for Qt and Symbian even at the end of last year, has not decided to switch to WP7.
    "History and spent resources/money/effort/tears/etc." does not work as an argument nowadays.

    On the other hand it also applies to any "well established code base", including John.Holloway's. "Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language" as we know, but it is not necessarily a goal. Some things which can be 'coded' in C/C++ are language features in Java and C#.

  14. #14
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard_hu_ View Post
    Miechu: you are new here, but so is this board. Just open http://www.developer.nokia.com/Commu...ment-Platforms, it has 26 threads now, check the other platforms too.
    Generally neither of you (you as person and this board) would be here if Nokia, after spending 10+ years into Symbian development and promising neverending life for Qt and Symbian even at the end of last year, has not decided to switch to WP7.
    Correct my if I'm wrong but Nokia switching mobile stuff to WP doesn't mean the end of QT, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard_hu_ View Post
    "History and spent resources/money/effort/tears/etc." does not work as an argument nowadays.
    Well to be honest I can't think of any other example than Nokia -> wp7, besides that... it's kinda hard to think that MS will drop technologies that are used by their own products - look at VB - that hasn't gone away...

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard_hu_ View Post
    On the other hand it also applies to any "well established code base", including John.Holloway's. "Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language" as we know, but it is not necessarily a goal. Some things which can be 'coded' in C/C++ are language features in Java and C#.
    I kind of agree... the problem for me is that everyone wants to have one hammer for every nail... and that's just a bad idea in general.

  15. #15
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    Re: When will standard C/C++ be supported...

    Quote Originally Posted by miechu View Post
    Correct my if I'm wrong but Nokia switching mobile stuff to WP doesn't mean the end of QT, right?
    Qt is a cross platform environment, from this point of view it will not really feel the difference. However Qt on Nokia devices is an other story. So far Qt runs on Symbian (on many models manufactured by Nokia) and on MeeGo (the single Nokia N9 from Nokia). Now remove Symbian from the picture and see how many Nokia devices and platforms (yet again, from Nokia) remain with Qt. Of course we will see what happens with the rumors about Qt on Series 40. Nokia owns Qt, so it probably makes sense to do something with it.
    Well to be honest I can't think of any other example than Nokia -> wp7
    That was not about the change, but about the connection (the lack of connection in fact) between bright past and any future. Think of Palm, see what is happening with BlackBerry right now.
    besides that... it's kinda hard to think that MS will drop technologies that are used by their own products - look at VB - that hasn't gone away...
    Ok, Microsoft in general is pretty good at backwards compatibility, I agree with that. However this discussion would not exist if WP7 would be compatible with any of its predecessors.

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