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  1. #1
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    Symbiansign delays, problems and against developers

    @itomuta

    I will be nice if somone could post what are the changes from OLD system to new one.
    Information is NOT precise, in order to understand how certificates are generated and the UID stuff.

  2. #2
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    Re: Symbian Signed Online gone

    @itomuta

    This new change in the policy has been reviewed by Nokia Commercial Department? It is the most importante technical mistake for nokia that will represent aprox. more than 10% lost of sales in Euros of sales revenue. Moreover, Nokia will lost again Iphone presence in Europe.
    Low sales of symbian represents developers move to other phones such as android, blackberry, and iphone.

    Before the changes, final customers could sign applications by themselves. Nokia has many applications on internet. As symbian is a dead languge nowadays, and nokia is moving to windows phone, why not to keep same symbiansigned?

    This new policy will force final customers to STOP buying nokia phones, and they could not receive a certificate to sign applications. Imagine microsoft putting restrictions on installing applications on windows, will cause microsoft a big problem. Same now for Nokia.

    Final customers are the main aim of developers, so i customers change Nokia to another competitor, this will also reduce developers efforts to keep developing nokia symbian applications.

    I strongly suggest NOKIA Sales Department to revise this policy at commercial and marketing strategy, as your techinical department will cause the company a big lost in market share, profit and customers worldwide. Moreover, this fix is out of time, as you know it is possible to bypass this restriction with technical firmware changes. Hope a nokia manager revise it, our you will ruin your OWN business, impressive!!

  3. #3
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    Symbiansign delays, problems and against developers

    Have Nokia Sales and Marketing Department approved this terrible mistake made by Nokia technicians?

    This new policy, restricted the final customers to obtain their own certificate. Nowadays only a company must be approved. So, final customers could not have their own cert and key and this will force upcoming customers to change their phones to iphone, blackberry and android.

    There are many applications on internet for nokia, if customers could not sign them, why they will buy a Nokia phone? totally useless phone!. This will affect developers as the market will decrease in size and attraction.

    In conclusion, this changes will reduce more than 10% per cent nokia incomes in Euros, will lost nokia number 1 position in Europe to increase iphones (apple) sales. Customers will NOT buy any new phone and DEVELOPERS are force to change to other phones as market is affected.

    Really, it is the most terrible comercial mistake of Nokia for the last 5 years. I know it is done to stop piracy, but if you are a coder you know that this will NOT stop piracy as symbiansigned has nothing to do related to piracy, it is a security certificate for nokia to control what is install on phone. Coders know how to prevent piracy WITHOUT using certificates (Encryption, server side coding, serials, etc.)

    This new policy affect final customers (will stop buying nokia phones) and developers will notice a reduction of the market , and prefer to code for other brands.

    Imagine Microsoft including installation restrictions on windows machines, it is a totally comercial error. Now, Nokia Technical People do that.

  4. #4
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    Re: Symbiansign delays, problems and against developers

    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    @itomuta

    I will be nice if somone could post what are the changes from OLD system to new one.
    Information is NOT precise, in order to understand how certificates are generated and the UID stuff.
    That is probably a valid request, although I'm not sure if I can distance myself from what it seems obvious to me in order to be able to address what may be pain points from an outside view. But this discussions should help us make that list of issues and address them.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Symbian Signed Online gone

    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    @itomuta

    This new change in the policy has been reviewed by Nokia Commercial Department? It is the most importante technical mistake for nokia that will represent aprox. more than 10% lost of sales in Euros of sales revenue. Moreover, Nokia will lost again Iphone presence in Europe.
    Low sales of symbian represents developers move to other phones such as android, blackberry, and iphone.
    I do not see any direct and imediate connection between changes in what is essentially an R&D process and the current mobile market dynamic.

    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    Before the changes, final customers could sign applications by themselves.
    That's like saying that before changes final customers could write applications themselves. Yes, some of them could. But they were not supposed to. Then a customer finds an applications there are only two things he/she has to do: a) install the app and b) pay for the app (not necessarely in that order). If the end user has to do application signing then it is either Nokia has failed in ensuring a good user experience or the application developer did. Since Nokia clearly stated the rules back in 2005 when Symbian OS 9.1 was introduced, it must be that the one failing here is the application developer, and if anythin the reacent process changes are only meant to re-enforce the defined rules with the end result being user experience improvement and likely added security.

    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    Nokia has many applications on internet. As symbian is a dead languge nowadays, and nokia is moving to windows phone, why not to keep same symbiansigned?
    True about the apps. False about Symbian being a) a language and b) dead. Symbian is still alive and well, widely spread and with many customers looking for applications. There are more than 6.000.000 downloads from the Ovi Store every day and more cool devices being sold enabling consumption of Symbian C++ and Qt-based applications.

    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    This new policy will force final customers to STOP buying nokia phones, and they could not receive a certificate to sign applications. Imagine microsoft putting restrictions on installing applications on windows, will cause microsoft a big problem. Same now for Nokia.

    Final customers are the main aim of developers, so i customers change Nokia to another competitor, this will also reduce developers efforts to keep developing nokia symbian applications.
    No, it won't. At best it would force some developers from change their release practices. As said already in other threads, and repeated again and again many years back already, releasing unsigned applications is not only bad, is also the source of many problems and restictions developers have had to suffer.

    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    I strongly suggest NOKIA Sales Department to revise this policy at commercial and marketing strategy, as your techinical department will cause the company a big lost in market share, profit and customers worldwide. Moreover, this fix is out of time, as you know it is possible to bypass this restriction with technical firmware changes. Hope a nokia manager revise it, our you will ruin your OWN business, impressive!!
    You may have a point, but we fail to see it. It would be great to help us understand the extent of the damage caused by these changes. Presumably your are impacted and our users will not lose access to an amazing piece of applications they all want to have and if you don't provide they will move to other platforms. Well, that would be a problem. So, what application(s) are you developing? Would it be possible for you to develop that application under the new Symbian Signed rules and conditions?
    Last edited by ltomuta; 2011-07-04 at 09:14.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Symbian Signed Online gone

    Quote Originally Posted by ltomuta View Post
    There are more than 6.000.000 downloads from the Ovi Store every day
    Mixing such number into this discussion might not work well. Ovi Store has some users, that is what it means.

  7. #7
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    Re: Symbian Signed Online gone

    Well, what the number is supposed to show is that there are customers looking for apps, and finding them. There's nothing dead about Symbian or any other Nokia platform.
    -- Lucian

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  8. #8
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    Re: Symbiansign delays, problems and against developers

    @itomuta

    This new changes affect the most important part of the market. The end user or the people who buy a nokia phone.
    If you analyse it professionally, you will notice that this changes AFFECT developers, not help them.

    The mobile market has many competitors. I code in symbian, android and java for blackberry. Nowadays, Nokia has many applications on forums, internet, and if a customer or ask me for recommendation i tell them "Buy a nokia phone like 5800 or 5230"

    With this changes, customers could not receive their free developer certificate to install third party applications. Only companies. This is totally useless, no other mobile company restrict this!
    This will encourage customers to change their buy decision to other brands such as iphone.

    So, developers will be affected as symbiansign is killing the market or the customer who is my aim of coding. Less customers, less developers interested in coding. It is a circle my friend.

    Nokia today is number 1 in Europe, but iphone is approaching. With this changes, i am sure nokia lost the market very soon. Your technical department is ruining developers and customers.

    Hope you understand my idea. It is a commercial and marketing strategy. Imagine microsoft including restrictions on windows to install applications. It is none sense.

    All other brands accept individual coders. For instance, blackberry registration is FREE and accept individual coders. Same for android and same for iphone.

    Nokia, start connecting people , not disconnecting them from your phones.....

  9. #9
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    Re: Symbiansign delays, problems and against developers

    I do not know BlackBerry at all, but I know Android, however nowadays it is starting to get some fame about regular malware+warez outbreaks in its own store. Of course end-users must be happy because of the lack of certification. Besides that I like Android and also develop for it.
    I am not sure if iOS would be the statue of openness. Could you give me free $99 by the way?
    Hope you understand my idea. It is a commercial and marketing strategy. Imagine microsoft including restrictions on windows to install applications. It is none sense.
    Have you seen WP7 and its store?

  10. #10
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    Re: Symbiansign delays, problems and against developers

    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    All other brands accept individual coders. For instance, blackberry registration is FREE and accept individual coders. Same for android and same for iphone.
    You do know that Ovi Publish has a registration fee of 1€ only and that all publising costs are subsidised by Nokia, right? You also know I hope that the service is open to individual publishers as well.

    I'm still waiting for a concrete example of limitations, feature you cannot access and/or impact these changes have on your particular business case. Until you bring such examples, the current changes to the Symbian Signed's services are considered improvements.
    I'm also looking forward to learn more about your software development activities, get to see that you know what you're talking about. So far, I have serious doubts.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Symbiansign delays, problems and against developers

    @itomuta

    Really? improvements for whom?


    1- Developers are forced to readapt the code mandatory. thats takes time and money. For instance, i have bought sources code and now i have to reassign UIDs internally, as i could not put my UID on symbiansign. rebuilding again the package!
    2- Nowadays, only companies are accepted. So, as a freeware producer , alone coder, i will have to fake nokia and apply as a fake company?
    3- My customers are asking me why this changes as they used to have free opda or s60certkey. Nowadays, i suggest them to move to another brand.
    4- I have to pay the test house for my freeware?? I pay 200 USD and test house fee for a freeware??? mmmm non sense
    5- This changes are considered bad to end customers. So, nokia buyers are angre, dissapointed and frustrated. This represent people changing phones to other brands. Less motivation for developers.
    6- I used to send customers unsigns version of my software, and they use free developers certificates to sign.
    7- You know there is a hardware solution to this problem, technicall firmware... so you encourage final customers to move to an illegal activity or change their phone to another competitor.
    8- I have closed projects. So in order to work again, i will have to modify the sources again, and re apply. This affect me as a developer. Time, money, wait times, etc.

    In conclusion, i dont see any improvement on symbiansign. Totally the other way, now it expulse customers, nokia end users to other phones. You must understand that increasing security not always is better to Nokia. So, customers rights to install applications on their phones are limited to what nokia wants and whats nokia approved. I dont think it is right that.

    You are affecting developers and final customers. That is an improve? i have NOT seen any good feedback from ANY developer here for the last 2 weeks. So?

  12. #12
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    Re: Symbiansign delays, problems and against developers

    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    1- Developers are forced to readapt the code mandatory. thats takes time and money. For instance, i have bought sources code and now i have to reassign UIDs internally, as i could not put my UID on symbiansign. rebuilding again the package!
    No you don't. Nothing has changed about the UIDs being uniquely allocated to every application since back in 2000. If you have a valid UID in your application (that is a UID asigned to you for your application) then you are free to continue using it, that UID is already recorded in your account.
    If you have managed not to follow the rules somehow, well, a UID change take 5 secons and after that all you have to do is rebuild and publish your app.
    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    2- Nowadays, only companies are accepted. So, as a freeware producer , alone coder, i will have to fake nokia and apply as a fake company?
    In Symbian Signed? Yes, only companies can get a Publisher ID. But you can publish as an individual through Ovi Publish (free) or you can of course set-up a company according to the rules in your country. Pay taxes, ..., the whole deal...
    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    3- My customers are asking me why this changes as they used to have free opda or s60certkey. Nowadays, i suggest them to move to another brand.
    OPDA is (or rather was) not an official source of certificates and I have no idea, nor do I particularely care to know, what the S60certkey is. Somehow I have the feeling that you haven't read anything from what I wrote above about signing and user experience for customers.
    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    4- I have to pay the test house for my freeware?? I pay 200 USD and test house fee for a freeware??? mmmm non sense.
    Freeware means that you are distrubuting your application for free. Your choice. It does not mean however that Nokia should subsidize the testing for you. If you can't afforfd to distribute freeware, put a price on it. Or stop developing.
    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    5- This changes are considered bad to end customers. So, nokia buyers are angre, dissapointed and frustrated. This represent people changing phones to other brands. Less motivation for developers.
    No, they are not. And no, they are not. Maybe. Unlikely.
    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    6- I used to send customers unsigns version of my software, and they use free developers certificates to sign.
    Too bad. I was writing years ago in my blog that unsigned version of app are not meant for release and that developers using such practices should stop doing it. Well, apparently you didn't. Until now.
    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    7- You know there is a hardware solution to this problem, technicall firmware... so you encourage final customers to move to an illegal activity or change their phone to another competitor.
    Are you claiming that your application is that good that customers would simply hack their phones in order to get it? Or buy another phone where the application is available? Seriously? Congratulations. Now I'm even more than before curious about who you are and how come we haven't met so far. At least online, here on these forums...
    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    8- I have closed projects. So in order to work again, i will have to modify the sources again, and re apply. This affect me as a developer. Time, money, wait times, etc.
    From what I've seen so far we're talking only about corrective actions against poorly managed projects. Sorry, but cleanup was due anyhow and the updates you need to apply are trivial for any developer.
    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    In conclusion, i dont see any improvement on symbiansign. Totally the other way, now it expulse customers, nokia end users to other phones. You must understand that increasing security not always is better to Nokia. So, customers rights to install applications on their phones are limited to what nokia wants and whats nokia approved. I dont think it is right that.
    Unsubstantiated claims. I'm sory that you are affected by this, but at the same time, it is your problem how you manage your business and the risks you take. As you can see there aren't a lot of complains here, a sign that most develpers are just fine with the new setup.
    Quote Originally Posted by droopyar View Post
    You are affecting developers and final customers. That is an improve? i have NOT seen any good feedback from ANY developer here for the last 2 weeks. So?
    Could it be that you don't see positive feedback because most developers are busy creating their new apps? Aside for those affected by unfortunate technical glitches with the site migration, the only questions and negative comments have been from a few other developers known to be affected by the changes only because, as you did, were trying to bypass the rules. As I unerstand they are cool with the new rules, now that they have been explained to them. For all the other developers, with proprtly managed projects there is simply no change, other than they having access now to a more flexible offline signing developer certificate. Which is a plus.
    Last edited by ltomuta; 2011-07-04 at 22:00. Reason: Typo
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  13. #13
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    Re: Symbiansign delays, problems and against developers

    @itomuta

    Why symbiansite is still a paid service? 200 USD for a certificate 1 year and also now add a test house fee? I think this improvements are to keep the incomes and revenues of symbiansigned, not to help developers.
    See blackberry policy. They also change from 20 USD to a free service. Android do not request signature.

    Have you read the post, all customers complains about the service. Seems something is not good. Very few information about the changes. Check some underground sites, there are new tools automatic for bypass RSA in 10 seconds on nokia.

  14. #14
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    Re: Symbiansign delays, problems and against developers

    Symbian Signed makes no money. The PublisherID certificates are issued by a 3rd party Certifcate Authority (CA), the TC Trust Center, while the testing fee is charged by the test house, for the actual testing it performs. The first is needed because in order for the system to work one must know who the publishing companies are. The Publisher ID is nothign but a electronic ID for your company. The testing is set as mandatory for applications which are using/accessing certain OS/device features considered sensitive for the integrity of the data, device or even GSM network in which it operates. Don't want to pay and/or be tested? Then don't use those features. Simple.

    Underground sites are of no interest to me, I think that above ground is much better, thank you.
    Last edited by ltomuta; 2011-07-05 at 19:49. Reason: The usual typos...
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  15. #15
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    Re: Symbiansign delays, problems and against developers

    To itomuta
    I'm afraid Droopyar is 100% right as to the negative attitude to the new certification rules. The people who know their Nokia smartphones a little bit deeper then "Menu" and "Ovi Store App" buttons are really disappointed. Within last few weeks different nokia forums are full of requests to help with signing the FREE, but very useful utilities, developed by enthusiasts.
    I use the following Freeware with my E66: NetworkSwitcher by Arok, and EQFastlang by EQ. The first one helps me to switch in a second between GSM (to save battery power) and 3G (to get quick internet access). Compare with traditional way!
    The second switch between my Native language and English (just keeping the asterisk pressed). Also compare with the way we get from the croud of official Symbian developers.:-) Don't know about others, but I like Symbian just because the heaps of small but very useful utilities over the Internet.

    You propose the Freeware developers to earn money on their hobby? It seems to me most of these people developing the apps for other reasons (-increasing their skills, -desire to make smartphones more convenient to use for them, their friends and other non-apathetic people). I like to Donate them, if possible.

    It was good Symbiosis for Symbian. Now you are destroying it. God bless you. Kind regards to Steven Elop. He did a lot of such a kind for Nokia (or Microsoft?).

    Now I've bought N8 (for big screen) to pair my E66, just because competitors and upcoming WP7 are worser for my usage purposes (it's IMHO, after testdrive of others). But I'm not very happy about it, cause the usage (with new restrictions) would not be so light as usual.

    P.S. Ovi Store is full of useless apps. Can't imagine the portrait of a person who uses most of them.
    Last edited by Porcius; 2011-07-19 at 07:37. Reason: My bad english

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