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  1. #1
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    Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Hola,

    It seems that, even after all of the environment variables have been set up (yucch), the tools crash with VS 2005.

    Has anyone installed and configured the S80 SDK on a machine using VS 2005, the complete Win2003 SDK and various other SDKs?

    Is there a list of what each environment variable should contain?



    -V-
    I Never *Try* Anything.

    I Just Do It.

  2. #2
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    Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Hola,

    It looks like 'Mitts' answered this indirectly in another post regarding s60 and VS 2005. His response included: "The main issues with 2005 are that there is a new debug format that is not compatible with any of the current SDKs.". This may be the case, however, it demonstrates Symbian's poor implementation of the SDK and perhaps a poor understanding of Software Development in general. Debug symbols are not required for developing applications against libraries, however, they can (and should) be provided for a specific platform when a developer or group of developers require them.
    Based on what I have seen so far, I believe Mitts' statement is accurate. This is unfortunate.

    My organization has moved to VS2005. I suggested that VS2003 be avoided altogether as it was microsoft's second 'real' release of the new environment and build system(s). After many, many years of dealing with microsoft tools, I have learned that microsoft doesn't get things right the first or second revision.

    However, Symbian, among others, seem to have jumped all over 2003 as if it were the 'end all, be all' solution.

    Frankly, outside of a single help file in microsoft help format, the S80 SDK has been a series of disappointments. To the point that my organization is considering dropping all activities related to the Symbian platform. If I am to convince anyone that it is worthwhile working with the Symbian OS (which I am starting to have serious doubts), I need to be able to show that we can design, develop, debug (our code, not Symbian's), build and update applications against the Symbian librairies in a stable, reliable, maintainable, extensible and usable manner.
    Is there any path at all to developing for the S80 OS in such a manner using VS 2005?


    This turned in to a rant. I intended only to follow-up with more information. However, I have been so very, very frustrated and disappointed with this Symbian tools that my follow-up is more rant than follow-up.
    I do apologize if I offend anyone, but these things need to be said. Symbian really should re-evaluate what it is releasing.



    -V-
    I Never *Try* Anything.

    I Just Do It.

  3. #3
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    Post Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Hi,

    Thank you for your comments. We acknowledge your feedback on Visual Studio 2003 and 2005. As indicated elsewhere, for now, we don't have a set date for Visual Studio 2005 support. I would also like to offer some clarifications to some of the points raised in your note.

    Nokia isn't treating VS2003 as if it were the "end-all solution." We created Nokia Developer Suite for Symbian OS, and the successor, Carbide.vs due to strong customer demand. The great majority of our developers who use Visual Studio have been using 2003 and are still doing so. While you have reservations about vs2003, it does work very well for Symbian OS development when used together with Carbide.vs. Problems with Symbian development (with the one exception being those features which are dependent of Intellisense; we believe those the issues are due to VS/Intellisense :-) are not really tied to VS2003. You would be setting false expectations for yourself and others if you expect VS 2005 to radically improve Symbian OS development. The challenge, of course, is that Visual Studio is a tool designed to support Microsoft platforms. Nokia provides a limited support package which makes it possible to target Symbian OS platforms but you should not assume that it is easy for us to support a non-Microsoft platform.

    Secondly, supporting VS development in a way that our customers consider reasonable and user-friendly (and even with our current ambition level we fall short of expectaions), is not just an issue of releasing some libraries etc. The Symbian build process uses a lot of tools etc that are not known by the basic VS build process and require a Nokia-created Visual Studio plugin in order to work. VS2005 has changed so much when it comes to the interfaces that are used for these plugins that the current VS2003 product will have to be redesigned and reimplemented to support VS2005. Even with the current level of support and functionality, the Plugin is far in excess of 100,000 lines-of-code and porting this to VS2005 is a far bigger task than simply releasing a few libraries.

    There's also an additional problem. In VS2005 the debug format has changed. While you are correct in that this does not prevent building etc, it does prevent debug/test. Since Nokia plans to provide on-device debug support only for our Eclipse-based Carbide.c++ family (and even then not for the free Express product), not having debug support for the current set of SDKs would leave VS2005 developers without any debug capability at all. This we consider unacceptable and it does not create a product that we consider worth releasing. The issues with the debug format are both techical as well as "political." The APIs needed to implement the debugger support are non-public and currently only available to developers that support Windows development. As we target Symbian OS development, these APIs are currently not available to us. Microsoft is considering a way to release these to us but as you can imagine, it's complicated due to the competitive situation. Even though the spirit of the negotiations is positive, they progress slowly.

    So we do hear your request and we are planning to update our support. At this time the best I can say is that 2005 support will not happen during the first half of 2006, and as of today I can't guarantee that we'll be able to do it at all. We are, however, actively working on the issue.

    In the meanwhile, Nokia is releasing the Carbide.c++ family of Eclipse-based tools. We are putting the majority of our investment into these tools, as we have the most opportunity to offer advanced features (like the on-device debugging) in the Eclipse environment. You should expect to see any new productivity enhancements to appear in the Eclipse tools. The first major steps forward in this area will be a UI design tool and on-device application debugging that will be available in the Carbide.c++ Developer product later this summer. I strongly suggest that you sample the Carbide.c++ products (the Express product is free and will be available by March) as they become available later this year.

  4. #4
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    Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Hello Mitts,

    Thanx for taking the time to read what I typed, responding to it and acknowledging that it was a bit of a rant.
    I really appreciate someone taking my comments seriously enough to respond to them.

    A couple of notes though (I'm not trying to be argumentative, just showing a different (perhaps shared) point of view):

    My comment regarding organizations treating VS2003 as an end all solution has to do with customized, targeted tools, libraries, etc just for that version.

    I don't really expect VS2005 to make developing for Symbian easier. Based on past experience with Microsoft OSs and tools, I've found it is better to let them work the bugs out and release a couple of updates. Think back to Visual Studio 98 (or whatever it was called back then) and VS 6; etc.

    I understand the importance of providing user friendly tools and applications. I was taught to target the eighty-fifth percentile when I started learning to write software back in 1985.
    However, the fact that 'makmake' fails with an error stating that it can't find version information for link.exe is a problem to me. Yes, I've set up everything the way I was supposed to; even checked against one of the remaining VS2003 machines and the only VS6 machine in-house. To me, this doesn't make sense. I'm just building the VS7 project files on a VS8 machine. To me, there isn't a reason for this process to fail. The files should be built. I should be able to open them in VS8, convert them and move on.
    To give an example, I am responsible for one project that was started on VS6. The tool chain builds VS6, VS7 project files and make files for gcc. Yesterday (Monday the 30th), I moved the project to a VS8 machine, rebuilt the project files using command line tools (written in TCL), opened the project files, converted them and built the various DLLs and apps. My organization is nowhere as large or as well funded as the smallest division in Nokia or Symbian.
    As far as VS plug-ins, add-ons, and other tools that integrate with the development environment, I understand fully the complexity involved in matching microsoft releases (which seems to be a moving target based on the last several years).
    The point of this is that while it is important to identify tools and components which target 85% of the user base (or whatever target set in-house), identifying the components that should target >99% and making them do so is just as important.

    I understand, accept and agree with the requirement to provide the debugging support. However, isn't it better to say something like "you can't debug it in VSwhatever, but you can code against our win32 libraries, compile and link using our custom compilers and linkers and run it in our emulator"? This goes back to identifing what 'must' be, 'should' be, 'may' be and 'could' be integrated into a development environment.


    Can I safely interpret the comments regarding the eclipse based tools as an indicator that the preferred development environment will become eclipse based?

    Again, I thank you for taking the time to respond.



    -V-
    Last edited by VirGin; 2006-01-31 at 15:17. Reason: Grammar Correction
    I Never *Try* Anything.

    I Just Do It.

  5. #5
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    Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Quote Originally Posted by VirGin
    Can I safely interpret the comments regarding the eclipse based tools as an indicator that the preferred development environment will become eclipse based?
    Yes, you can. Once the Carbide.c++ Developer and Pro products launch, developer productivity will certainly be much better in the Eclipse environment than in any other environment.

  6. #6
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    Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Hello,
    I am Symbian developer and have read all the comments entered so far. I need to port my Codewarrior application to Visual Studio 2005 environment. Build the project and generate the vcproj file and run the application from VS2005.

    I Know that Carbide.vs supports VS2003 IDE. Tried building my application through it. I have got success doing it. Can i use this vcproj file and open it in VS2005 environment and using some plugin or anything, associate it with Epoc.exe and make it running through VS2005 environment.

    If not when is the VS2005 plugin going to be released by Nokia as this is the 2nd half of 2006 year.

    Kindly reply ASAP.

    Thanks.

  7. #7
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    Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Quote Originally Posted by mitts
    The great majority of our developers who use Visual Studio have been using 2003 and are still doing so.
    You have also forgotten that a vast majority of C++ developers who avoided the whole C# like the plague, now finally admit that .2005 is a true successor to vc6. What I am saying is that there is a plethora of C++ developers coming from archaic MS systems that dislike 2003 only slightly less than they dislike Eclipse.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitts
    The challenge, of course, is that Visual Studio is a tool designed to support Microsoft platforms.
    Funnily enough 2005 is designed to be a non-specific developer platform. For instance, SQL-server configuration and development is now done using this tool. I think we are failing to see the problems that you (and your team) have outlined.

    That said, I do understand that perhaps a port of VS.2003 to VS.2005 may be impossible, due to the vastly different ideolegies in design, however, I would have thought that VS.2005 would be actually easier to develop for that VS.2003 if you did it from the ground and upwards.

    Furthermore,
    You want us to purchase your mobile phones for which you generate 1 new one every month (or so). Yet, you don't believe that spending a bit of time to satisfy the developers (who can then showcase your products better)! ???

    Look again at the MS development philiosophy: Get the developers working for your products and then you can corner it.

    2c

  8. #8
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    Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    A couple of observations on your comments:

    Quote Originally Posted by cmroanirgo
    You have also forgotten that a vast majority of C++ developers who avoided the whole C# like the plague, now finally admit that .2005 is a true successor to vc6.
    There is really no evidence for this in the Forum Nokia developer demographics, 2003 is very clearly the dominant IDE platform, now being replaced by 2005.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmroanirgo
    That said, I do understand that perhaps a port of VS.2003 to VS.2005 may be impossible, due to the vastly different ideolegies in design, however, I would have thought that VS.2005 would be actually easier to develop for that VS.2003 if you did it from the ground and upwards.
    Supporting 2005 is not impossible but still has a significant price tag. For C++ support, 2005 does not really provide any improvements over 2003. Most of the new 2005 features seem to apply to managed code (C#) only.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmroanirgo
    Furthermore,
    You want us to purchase your mobile phones for which you generate 1 new one every month (or so). Yet, you don't believe that spending a bit of time to satisfy the developers (who can then showcase your products better)! ???
    Well, I would argue that we do understand the value. We have however focused on Eclipse with this investment, which I guess is a choice you do not agree with. Other developers - I hope - think differently.

    1c?

  9. #9
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    Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Thanks for your reply mitts. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by mitts
    There is really no evidence for this in the Forum Nokia developer demographics, 2003 is very clearly the dominant IDE platform, now being replaced by 2005.
    Having just been to the Nokia Tech Day in Sydney, I was relieved to find that several other developers prefer the VisualStudio choice. It appears that I am just the most vocal about my disapproval of Carbide.
    Other developers at the Tech Day (including your own speakers) admitted that Carbide was not yet a fully comprehensive IDE (albeit they think it is heaps better than CodeWarrior). There are lots of little annoying things that hold it back. Other developers at Tech Day agreed.
    Note. I am not completely against Eclipse solutions. In fact, Adobe Flex Builder 2 was a very well packaged and nicely rounded out IDE. Carbide is not. (If you desire I can start another thread on what Carbide should be doing to be a better package)

    Quote Originally Posted by mitts
    Supporting 2005 is not impossible but still has a significant price tag. For C++ support, 2005 does not really provide any improvements over 2003. Most of the new 2005 features seem to apply to managed code (C#) only.
    Also at the Tech Day, it was quoted that 100million units have been shipped this year (...or it's their target...or something like that). Surely a paltry few multiple of $10,000 (tidbits for a company of your size) would increase your reach into developers who use VisualStudio.
    As to the 'new features' you allude to. I have steadfastly refused to move to .NET2002 or .NET2003 for precisely the reason you mention: lack of C++ improvements. If you were to truly see the advances MS has added to the C++ compiler for .NET2005, you will see why a LOT of us oldies using VC6 are now flocking to the new IDE.
    In a Nutshell, .NET2005 is the first true advancement for (MS) C++ since VC6.
    Of course I don't look busy! I got it right the first time.

  10. #10
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    Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Hello Friends!

    Do we have any solution?? I refering to to VS 2005 compatibility to S60 SDK.
    I know carbide is (one) solution, but then i dont want to migrate to carbide.

    just directing to other threads will also do ...where the solution is posted.

  11. #11
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    Smile Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Hello maximusesunny,
    Welcome!!! :)
    Quote Originally Posted by maximusesunny
    Hello Friends!

    Do we have any solution?? I refering to to VS 2005 compatibility to S60 SDK.
    I know carbide is (one) solution, but then i dont want to migrate to carbide.

    just directing to other threads will also do ...where the solution is posted.
    VS 2005 is not compatible with S60 SDK.

    Better you can work with VS 2003 with Carbide.Vs.

    One link:
    http://discussion.forum.nokia.com/fo...ad.php?t=77229

    All the best.
    Regards.
    Kiran.

  12. #12
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    Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Quote Originally Posted by cmroanirgo
    As to the 'new features' you allude to. I have steadfastly refused to move to .NET2002 or .NET2003 for precisely the reason you mention: lack of C++ improvements. If you were to truly see the advances MS has added to the C++ compiler for .NET2005, you will see why a LOT of us oldies using VC6 are now flocking to the new IDE.
    In a Nutshell, .NET2005 is the first true advancement for (MS) C++ since VC6.
    It would be very interesting to understand what new features you see in 2005 vs 2003 in the area of C++ that you think provide such an improvement, as to me most of the new features that I think would be useful apply to C#. From an IDE extensibiltiy point of view there is nothing in the C++ project that we see very beneficial to Symbian OS either. Please elaborate.

    For the VC++ compiler itself, note that Carbide.vs can not use the VS compiler for the newer SDKs (2nd Ed FP3 and later) and most likely not for the earlier SDKs either as there have been some changes to the compiler that make existing code not compile with the VS compiler :-(. Thus we do not considerer improvements in the compiler proper to have beneficial impact on Symbian OS development.

  13. #13
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    Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Mitts, I completely understand that the Symbian Compiler will have nothing to do with the MS one.

    With MS C++ extensions in .2005, a C++ developer can seamlessly swap between managed (.NET) code and native code. I can use garbage collection on one object and new/delete on another.
    Whilst these advances are only relevant to the MS platform, my point is that there are going to be more developers using this platform, since they will be migrating from older platforms, bypassing .2003 and .2002 altogether.

    So as far as advances in the IDE go from .2003 to .2005, I am not aware of anything earth shattering...

    To bring me back to one of my main issues:
    Nokia want us to develop for the cutting edge mobile phones, using aging tools/IDEs to do so. I don't understand _anyone's_ reluctance on this matter to not support the latest generation MS tools (for which there is a free version) ...the answer should be obvious (well, it is to me).

    I'll give any editor a chance, but Eclipse/Carbide isn't good enough for a seasoned C++ developer.

  14. #14
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    Re: Symbian S80 SDK & VS 2005

    Thanks for your input. Just minor note: the free (2005 Express) version is not extendible so we cannot use that as the base for a tool.

  15. #15
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    Finally in the works :-)!

    As a follow-up to this very old discussion, the request for beta testers for Carbide.vs for VS 2005 is now open. If you are still around and interested, do sign up for the beta!

    On a technical note, in the end the implementation ended up being such that we will use the Nokia compiler and then feed that compiled stuff into the Microsoft native linker. Using the MS linker provided the key to also being able provide debugging of the application. So the product will come with emulator debug based on the "native" Visual Studio 2005 debugger (but not on-device, you will still need Carbide.c++ for that).

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