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  1. #1
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    Angry Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    I was using Netbeans/j2me and eveything was GREAT. Everything just WORKS. You rarely have to read the documentation because things work as you'd expect.

    Unfortunately j2me doesn't give the level of control I need over text entry - what's available just doesn't look good ( even being able to set background colour would help ). Everything else is fine and I would use it if I could avoid the user entering text...

    So I started looking at Symbian / c++ and CodeWarrior..... that was 2 days ago. I'm STILL trying to get it to work. I haven't come across anything as bad as this since back in the 80s.

    It's just basically crap. Considering it's been around in one form or another since the 80s and Netbeans is only around a few yrs at most , HOW can it be so bad ?

    Even FINDING the stuff on Nokia's site has been a hugely time consuming business with pages not found,descriptions partially displayed and the essential details buried deep. ( I had to go to yahoo search to find out how much carbide/codewarrior were as the Nokia link doesn't / didn't work and there's nothing in the also difficult to find software market section )

    Not ONE single thing has worked first off and most of the documentation / help has not been of any use in fixing problems.

    Admittedly, most of the problem appears to be down to sample/example and generated code which just don't work.

    I'm going to give it another 2 days tops and then the user is just going to have to make do with an ugly text entry form....

    Worse still ; you're expected to PAY! for this ( when the amazing Netbeans is FREE ! ) and who owns it ? Nokia do. Nokia are charging developers for tools that COST hundreds of dollars just to get working after you've bought them...

    This is THE worst experience I have had with development tools in 20 yrs in the IT industry.

  2. #2
    (Retired) Nokia Developer Admin.
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    Hi Powerb,

    Thanks for writing your note. Going from a language like Java to C++ which is very similar but still much lower level is hard. Going to the Symbian Variant is got to be even harder still and trying to do it all in one gulp is a lot to take on. I can understand your frustration and I am sure that others will know exactly what you are going through.

    CodeWarrior Symbian is about 5 years old while CodeWarrior is older still, it really isn't very much older than NetBeans in its current IDE version. But it is on the edge of its life cycle which is why we are moving to Carbide.j and Carbide.C++ based on the eclipse IDE.

    As far as the links, you probably picked the worst week to take up Nokia development. If you read my global announcement it explains some things, but with your 20 years in the IT business you certainly have been though this yourself and can understand. I know it added to your frustration and I thank you for understanding.

    What I can say is, when you hit this little problem drop a note here, there are a hundred thousand Nokia developers most of whom are willing to help another start up. So give us a little details and we'll help you out. And we don't mind you blowing off a bit of steam.

    Ron

  3. #3
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    hi Powerb,


    Quote Originally Posted by powerb

    So I started looking at Symbian / c++ and CodeWarrior..... that was 2 days ago. I'm STILL trying to get it to work. I haven't come across anything as bad as this since back in the 80s.

    Even FINDING the stuff on Nokia's site has been a hugely time consuming business with pages not found,descriptions partially displayed and the essential details buried deep. ( I had to go to yahoo search to find out how much carbide/codewarrior were as the Nokia link doesn't / didn't work and there's nothing in the also difficult to find software market section )

    Not ONE single thing has worked first off and most of the documentation / help has not been of any use in fixing problems.

    Admittedly, most of the problem appears to be down to sample/example and generated code which just don't work.

    I'm going to give it another 2 days tops and then the user is just going to have to make do with an ugly text entry form....


    This is THE worst experience I have had with development tools in 20 yrs in the IT industry.
    To take it furthur from Nokia Ron.
    We understand the frustation that ur going through. But on forum Nokia u got to mention the things that are not working 4u.Like system errors, exceptions and any misleneuos things that ur struck up with. There are many contributors as mentioned by NOkia Ron who will reply u back.


    This is a Sincere request for newbies and others,Plz Post the problems that ur facing in ur development. So that any of our contributors can reply u back.


    Regards,
    Mateen Maldar
    "Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, the mind can achieve"

  4. #4
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    Hi powerb, a friend of mine who has been programming in Symbian OS also has similar comment. He said, "I feel 20 years younger after programming in Symbian OS". That was a joke... but I just want to say that you are not alone. It's not only you who has a feeling like that...

    There are so many design problems with CodeWarrior in Symbian OS (the editor is also that nice either, but better than Notepad). I think Nokia has made a good decision to move from CodeWarrior to Carbide.c++. Carbide.c++, which is based on Eclipse IDE, is better than CodeWarrior, but it is still not comparable to Microsoft's tool.

    I have about 10 years programming in Windows platform using Microsoft and Borland tools; so I know how is the feeling to use Symbian OS development tools.

    Anyway, why don't you try Carbide.c++? You may hit some problems too, but it may not as many as CodeWarrior.

    I know that some Nokia insiders are watching this forum discussion too (like Nokia Ron). So let's hope they can do something to make it better.

    Antony

  5. #5
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    I really don't think that changing the IDE will help with any of your problems. It just isn't easy to get started with Symbian development.

  6. #6
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    I agree that Symbian OS has a very steep learning curve.

    However, Carbide.c++ has fixed some problems in CodeWarrior related to the build process.

    And more thing, Nokia will release Carbide.c++ Professional pretty soon. It will have UI designer (Borland's like products) -> so designing UI in S60 will become easier. Of course, engine development is still not easy.

    Antony

  7. #7
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    Background
    -----------
    Previously I used Microsoft products because the company I worked for was one of the biggest MS users. When it comes to VS C++ look at the problems.
    Few examples, even fewer that work. Books that have errors in code examples. The change from VS c++ 1.0 to 2.1 was horrible. The code would not work with another version, *BUY* another they said. You cannot buy an old version, thats MS market policy to push new products.

    My View
    --------
    I mostly work on bluetooth connectivty and this can be hard work.
    When I installed Netbeans as my project was too big to debug with notepad.exe. I had to find the Bluecove and compile it. Then the MS Win XP bluetooth devices problems had to be overcome. But it all worked now.

    I installed Carbide C++ and it went really well, I ran the HelloWorld, it broke. I fixed it with help this forum. I found a bug in the .pkg file so I fixed it and posted the repaired file in this forum.

    My only concern is that I cannot prior version of the compilers to rebuild the examples. When I compiled the bluetooth btadvertiser is failed as I was using GCC so I went back to S60 3rd FP1 MR it failed.
    I needed S60 2nd FP3 so after a lot of looking I found it and installed it.
    Carbide.C++ recognised it.

    So why not have a message saying this *MUST* run with S60 2nd FP3
    Carbide knew this when it parsed the import file!.

    Unlike Microsoft, lets keep old versions available, I cant find S60 2nd Ed FP1 to build some examples.
    When you have to modify old code you need to compile it before its upgraded and that needs the old compilers.

    I have been in the industry since 1979 and its the first time a C++ program works properly for me.


    I suppose it fitting that this should be on a community supported software

    Jim
    Last edited by jimgilmour1; 2006-07-21 at 18:59.

  8. #8
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimgilmour1
    Unlike Microsoft, lets keep old versions available, I cant find S60 2nd Ed FP1 to build some examples.
    How come you cannot find the 2nd Ed FP1 SDK to download? I've just re-downloaded it last week from the FN site.

    S.

  9. #9
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    Quote Originally Posted by siancu
    How come you cannot find the 2nd Ed FP1 SDK to download? I've just re-downloaded it last week from the FN site.

    S.
    Well I have searched all combinations I know and cant find it could you copy your download link as FN web pages have changed.
    Thnanks,
    Jim

  10. #10
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    Go to http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.n...16-3.0-mr.html

    There, on the right side, you will find a drop-down listbox with all Nokia S60's SDKs.

    S.

  11. #11
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    I voice my support for the Original Poster! The Symbian framework just Does Not Work out of the box.

    However, since we are all in this together, let's just try to make it work... somehow :P

    PS. Whoever said that VC++ sucked, as well.... WHO CARES? Ok, they both sucked. So what? That is no excuse for Symbian! "HelloWorld, it broke. I fixed it with help this forum. I found a bug in the .pkg file so I fixed it and posted the repaired file in this forum." That is exactly what should NOT happen.

    PS. I am very happy that Carbide is the IDE of the future. At first, CodeWarrior was a complete surprise to me - I never thought any professional would touch such a piece of binary waste.

  12. #12
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    We have the same problem. I've been coding for Microsoft platform and palmOS for years and I can say Symbian platform is harder than I thought. Still have a hard time on creating simple textbox and simple labels (how i wish creating textbox and labels is as easy as printf and scanf). The only code that work sucessful on me was the "hello world" on carbide c++. How I wish that Nokia shall release IDE with GUIs just like MFC on VC++ or QT on Linux. Much more if they shall release Basic for Symbian (just like VB), im sure thousands of developer shall code for Symbian. (VB have mroe coder compare to any other programming language)

    I can say Microsoft platform is easier to handle coz they have the best IDE developer coding for 'em. Visual Studio have the best and easiest IDE to use (so far i've encountered), they have drag and drop feature and all you need to do is to edit. Moreover, all you need to do if you want to transfer your Windows PC codes to Windows mobile is to copy all of your existing code to your new one and recompile the same and the code still works. Borland have delphi and c++ builder in which easier to code than the manual win32 coding.

    Palm have plenty of 3rd party IDE to work with, in case you'll have a hard time in studying its SDK, moreover, old palm softwares still works on their new platform and even future platform. (unlike Symbian, you need to recode and recompile your existing Series60v1 inorder to work fine on Series60v3)

    I also tried Appforge, although it is easier to use but the problem is most of my clients are complaining about the appbooster, the same makes them annoy appearing 'em on their screen. Moreover appforge application wont work without the appbooster and worst of all, its expensive and the same is not compatible on Symbian S60V3. Furthermore, Appforge is IDE dependent, the same wont work without visual studio. Hence, you need to pay for the Appforge and the Visual Studio.

  13. #13
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    My 2 pennies comment.

    I do recognize that Nokia is spending resources in development tools. But they are still far away from competitors.
    (How is it possible that when an SDK is released neither the HelloWorld example works out of the box?)

    IMO the real lack is in the development tools rather than in SDK.
    CodeWarrior has potential, but is simply not reliable (and costs 1600 dollars!).
    I stopped counting the times I have errors with GCCE and how many days I have to waste to find a solution (like now).
    Carbide c++ maybe a good promise, but at the moment doesn’t allow on device debugging, which is the only reason to buy CW.
    [BTW: why there is not possibility to upgrade from CW PRO license to Carbide Developer Edition? I hope it will come, but this possibility was not announced. The official answer I got was that from CW PRO I should move to Carbide PRO, but the only thing I need is on device debugging].

    I think the present one is a “transaction” time, where developers should move from CW to Eclipse. But IMHO situation is quite dangerous since WinCE is gaining and MS tools just work out of the box (beside are much more intuitive than CW!).
    That means that if a company has to choose a smart phone platform for development... why should they choose Symbian?
    I believe that who does it at the present has really not choice (like market volume and so on)!

    Finally I agree with essoess: “we are all in this together, let’s just try to make it work”.
    And we must recognize that this forum works pretty well, with a lot of valuable contributors, from Nokia & outside.
    So let’s help each other... waiting for better tools.

    francute: I personally wont like to have VB in Symbian mobiles, but you should definitely try Python for S60: with one line of code you get your text box.

    Mik

  14. #14
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    Python is good but the thing is the current python dont support Symbian S60V3, yet. Any Visual programming on nokia would be much better.

  15. #15
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    Re: Does Nokia not want people to write software ?

    Quote Originally Posted by francute
    Python is good but the thing is the current python dont support Symbian S60V3, yet.
    Perhaps you missed this one, somehow: http://discussion.forum.nokia.com/fo...ad.php?t=84373

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